Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[french frank]

I would think it's better to confront the contradiction (one hopes) between then and now, both as performers and audiences, and try to understand it, than to ignore it or to change the words or perform them in some anachronistic way.

I was wondering whether to contribute something like that … in fact the words jean quotes are nowhere near as 'antisemitic' as some others. People nowadays have a more nuanced view of religious doctrine; in the 12th c., that Judaism/Jews did not accept the Virgin Birth and divinity of Christ could indeed be equated with 'deceiving' and denying the 'truth'.

That is simply à propos the anti-Semitism accusation; the Renaissance was an earlier Enlightenment; presumably the sequence of atrocities against Jews in the Middle Ages set a change of thinking in motion. Rejection of Judaism could be separated from hating the Jews.

[Oldcrofter]

'Fraid the lighter side didn't survive long, Ardcarp.

Anyway, I await with interest further enlightenment on this message board regarding the Polytextual Motet from that world authority on the subject, Glubbin Mcfluffyfarts

[jean]

...But they all sing "Credo in unum Deum" and I doubt if they worry much about it...

That's an interesting one.

I've known atheists/agnostics who will happily sing 'Credo in unum Deum', but if they happen to be taking part in an actual service, will rather ostentatiously (it seems to me) refuse to say it.

Does this mean that one's commitment to what is said is greater than to what is sung?

.

[vinteuil]

That's an interesting one.

I've known ateists/agnostics who will happily sing 'Credo in unum Deum', but if they happen to be taking part in an actual service, will rather ostentatiously (it seems to me) refuse to say it.

Does this mean that one's commitment to what is said is greater than to what is sung?

... and yet the phrase attributed to S Augustine is that 'he who sings prays twice' -

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2006/02/st-augustine-he-who-sings-prays-twice/

[Pulcinella]

That's an interesting one.

I've known ateists/agnostics who will happily sing 'Credo in unum Deum', but if they happen to be taking part in an actual service, will rather ostentatiously (it seems to me) refuse to say it.

Does this mean that one's commitment to what is said is greater than to what is sung?

I think it does.
As a non-believer, I too 'happily' sing a credo when our choral society sings a mass, and I don't think that my participation is that different from that of a believer. Perhaps I'm not as fervent, but I can get involved in the music as I understand what it's about without being in sympathy with the text.
But I would not say it if I went to a church service.

I have always liked Stravinsky's comment about the Credo in his mass:
In making a musical setting of the Credo I wished only to preserve the text in a special way.
One composes a march to facilitate marching men, so with my Credo I hope to provide an aid to the text.
The Credo is the longest movement.
There is much to believe.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Knowing what the words mean can certainly enliven a performance, but it can also lead to "hammy" over-exaggeration and "interpretation": it depends on the Musicality of the performers, their relationship with the conductor - and the attitude of the listener.

But the words are part of the piece. Of course, what done with the singers' knowledge and understanding of those words is crucial, but I can't see how not knowing what the words mean can be feasible for the performers.

[ardcarp]

'Fraid the lighter side didn't survive long, Ardcarp.

No indeed. But a further thought enters my tiny brain. The umbrella title of this thread, 'Choral Music', apart from being what would expect on The Choir, has spawned a lot of chat about sacred music. And looking back on all the singing wot I done, I suppose the greater proportion of it has been just that...and increasingly so as the years passed by. It was very common at one time for choirs and choral societies to do secular concerts. One thinks of Elgar part-songs, Moeran 'Songs of Springtime', Britten's Flower Songs (I'm just plucking a few out of the air) and madrigals (yes, sung by whole choirs). Of the big choral and orchestral pieces there's VW's Sea Symphony...and whatever happened to Dyson's Canterbury Pilgrims?

I found this list:

http://www.choralnet.org/view/220715

It's quite short.

[jean]

Its author writes:

"I'll also suggest Elgar's "Dream of Gerontius", although I've only heard it, and don't know about the absolute secularity of it, although it seemed to be fairly secular."

Someone wasn't engaging with the meaning of the words in that performance!

[Vox Humana]

I found this list:

http://www.choralnet.org/view/220715

It's quite short.

Stanford's Songs of the Sea and Songs of the Fleet ought to be in there, as should Carter's Horizons (another sea-themed work). Excellent pieces, all of them.

[jean]

There's plenty more that could be there - I note the complete absence of Rutland Boughton, for example.

[mopsus]

Just to observe that three of the works on that list (Dona Nobis Pacem, Carmina Burana and Mahler 8) are programmed for this year's 3 Choirs Festival in Gloucester.

This one thread has encompassed a very wide range of topics. Maybe we need more threads like this that are not tied to a particular broadcast, but explore more general themes relating to choirs and choral music?

[Gabriel Jackson]

And looking back on all the singing wot I done, I suppose the greater proportion of it has been just that...and increasingly so as the years passed by. It was very common at one time for choirs and choral societies to do secular concerts. One thinks of Elgar part-songs, Moeran 'Songs of Springtime', Britten's Flower Songs (I'm just plucking a few out of the air) and madrigals (yes, sung by whole choirs).

There are plenty of concerts of secular repertoire today, sometimes including the pieces mentioned (even madrigals, occasionally, I suspect). There is a lot more secular music sung in some countries than is the case here, partly because, it seems likely, they have little or no extant Renaissance music. In terms of Eastern Europe, say, the centre of gravity is very different from ours.

and whatever happened to Dyson's Canterbury Pilgrims?

It's forgotten because it's not very good? I can think of far better neglected pieces from that era than anything by George Dyson!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's forgotten because it's not very good? I can think of far better neglected pieces from that era than anything by George Dyson!

I can't agree with that sweeping statement. Dyson's Three Songs of Courage are quite remarkable (in my opinion of course).

[Richard Barrett]

It's forgotten because it's not very good?

heaven forfend!

[Gabriel Jackson]

Dyson's Three Songs of Courage are quite remarkable (in my opinion of course).

I couldn't agree, or disagree with that, as I've never heard it. What I have heard, or sung, by Dyson is pretty poor, in my opinion.