Vespers at Hampton Court

[Don Basilio]

Well, I always rather like the theory that after the Roman rite had gone underground, such singing as was done at all was likely to have been around the kitchen table by persons of either sex (they would never have dared sing anything during an actual mass, which had to be completed as quickly as possible for fear of discovery).

I understood from liner notes that Byrd wrote his masses and Gradualia precisely for private celebrations in large recusant houses.

Furthermore, in the Gradualia he set the Tridentine texts rather than the Sarum ones.

[Vox Humana]

... Hampton Court Palace held its first Catholic Service since Henry VIII broke from Rome in the 16th century.

What twaddle. (Not you, Jean.) Henry died a Catholic and his daughter wasn't exactly Protestant either.

...John Fayrfax...

Who he?

[jean]

...Henry died a Catholic...

All depends on what you mean by Catholic, doesn't it?

I know Anglicans who firmly believe that they are the Catholic Church, the Church of Rome being an invention of the Counter-Reformation.

As for Henry, the only kind of reform he was interested in was of his marital arrangements, and he didn't really think through the implications of his break with the Pope.

[Vox Humana]

As for Henry, the only kind of reform he was interested in was of his marital arrangements

That's not true. He was keenly interested in theology and flirted briefly with the Lutherans before back-tracking and burning their books. Even so, he took several steps toward reforming the Catholic liturgy, not least the introduction of English bibles and readings and forbidding the public observance of nearly all saints' days that got in the way of summer work. "The King's Primer" was his own work too. However, at his death, the church services were still predominantly in Latin, were still the age-old round, including the separate cycle of hours and mass of the BVM, still regarded the Virgin as the principle intercessor among the saints, etc. It is true that it was a humanist era, that reform was in the air everywhere - Europe-wide, I think - and change was inevitable. Henry wanted a less superstitious religion and took steps through Thomas Cromwell to reduce the veneration of saints (John Taverner was famously the fingers of Cromwell's arm in Boston). Cranmer sketched a drastically revised Latin breviary, but really not a vast amount had altered by the time Henry died. It was only then that Edward VI, Cranmer and others managed to push the Protestant agenda.

[Don Basilio]

Henry thought he died a Catholic ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Henry thought he died a Catholic ?

This is how I "understood" it - the Head of the English Catholic Church.

[jean]

Did nobody ever get round to excommunicating him?

[Nevilevelis]

That's not true. He was keenly interested in theology and flirted briefly with the Lutherans before back-tracking and burning their books. Even so, he took several steps toward reforming the Catholic liturgy, not least the introduction of English bibles and readings and forbidding the public observance of nearly all saints' days that got in the way of summer work. "The King's Primer" was his own work too. However, at his death, the church services were still predominantly in Latin, were still the age-old round, including the separate cycle of hours and mass of the BVM, still regarded the Virgin as the principle intercessor among the saints, etc. It is true that it was a humanist era, that reform was in the air everywhere - Europe-wide, I think - and change was inevitable. Henry wanted a less superstitious religion and took steps through Thomas Cromwell to reduce the veneration of saints (John Taverner was famously the fingers of Cromwell's arm in Boston). Cranmer sketched a drastically revised Latin breviary, but really not a vast amount had altered by the time Henry died. It was only then that Edward VI, Cranmer and others managed to push the Protestant agenda.

Excellent. Thank you.

[Vox Humana]

This is how I "understood" it - the Head of the English Catholic Church.

Yes, you can remove the adjective "Roman" and substitute "English" if you like, but of course Henry wouldn't have though of it that way because those distinctions didn't exist in the sixteenth century. He was born and died a member of the "old religion" (perhaps a better descriptor than Catholic since the Protestants did not considered themselves so much un-Catholic as reformed, hence the retention of the word in the Prayer Book Creed).

Did nobody ever get round to excommunicating him?

Yes, eventually.

[Nevilevelis]

Did nobody ever get round to excommunicating him?

“Bull against Hen. VIII., renewing the execution of the bull of 30 Aug. 1535, which had been suspended in hope of his amendment, as he has since gone to still further excesses, having dug up and burned the bones of St, Thomas of Canterbury and scattered the ashes to the winds, (after calling the saint to judgment, condemning him as contumacious*, and proclaiming him a traitor), and spoiled his shrine. He has also spoiled St. Augustine’s monastery in the same city, driven out the monks and put in deer in their place. Publication of this bull may be made in Dieppe or Boulogne in Fiance, or in St. Andrew’s or Coldstream (? “in oppido Calistrensi”), St. Andrew’s dioc., in Scotland, or in Tuam or Ardfert in Ireland, if preferred, instead of the places named in the former bull Rome, Paul III.”

Pope Paul III, 17th December 1538.

Although there is no evidence that it was actually ever delivered.

After the final straw:

“Sentence to the effect that Thomas, formerly archbishop of Canterbury, having been cited, and no one having appeared for him, judgment is given that in his life time he disturbed the realm, and his crimes were the cause of his death, although the people hold him for a martyr. He is therefore never to be named martyr in future, his bones are to be token up and publicly burnt and the treasures of his shrine confiscated to the King. This edict to be published in London, Canterbury, and elsewhere. London, 11 June, 1538.
This sentence pronounced, the King commanded it to be put into execution 11 Aug. The gold and silver of the shrine (says Pollini) filled 26 waggons. On the 19th (St. Bernard’s duy), the sacrilege was completed and the sacred relics publicly burnt and the ashes scattered.”

*(especially of a defendant's behaviour) stubbornly or wilfully disobedient to authority.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, you can remove the adjective "Roman" and substitute "English" if you like, but of course Henry wouldn't have though of it that way because those distinctions didn't exist in the sixteenth century. He was born and died a member of the "old religion" (perhaps a better descriptor than Catholic since the Protestants did not considered themselves so much un-Catholic as reformed, hence the retention of the word in the Prayer Book Creed).

[Don Basilio]

I know Anglicans who firmly believe that they are the Catholic Church, the Church of Rome being an invention of the Counter-Reformation.

I have been involved in catholically minded C of E circles for over 40 years and have never noticed that combination.

There are plenty of Anglicans who reckon they are catholic and revere the Roman church as the senior partner.

That is why many of them object to the ordination of women to the priesthood since Rome does not accept it. I am sorry to say.

[jean]

There are plenty of Anglicans who reckon they are catholic and revere the Roman church as the senior partner.

I think most do! Certainly the ones who use the Roman liturgy, and that curious hybrid, Evensong and Benediction.

But have you ever come across these people?

[mopsus]

But have you ever come across these people?

Yes - they have a church based in what looks like a former shop in the centre of Canterbury. Their numbers in this country appear to be tiny.

[Don Basilio]

But have you ever come across these people?

Stone the crows, jean. I know of some odd ecclesiastical bunches, but that one has hitherto passed me by. (American Episcopalians are spectacularly fissiparous and I take it this originates over the pond.)