Can Radio 3 Choral Evensong broadcasts be considered liturgical reconstructions?

[jean]

That's only the case in the Eastern Orthodox church, surely?

[subcontrabass]

That's only the case in the Eastern Orthodox church, surely?

No. In the Orthodox Church the Eucharist is the "Divine Liturgy", but the concept of "Liturgy" embraces all church services.

[jean]

In that case, nobody thinks that the concept of 'liturgy' only applies to the Mass.

And I'm back to not understanding what's meant by

...the amount of actual liturgy involved in a service of Evensong is pretty minimal.

and wondering in what way Evensong is different from Vespers, of which many liturgical reconstructions have been mounted.

[subcontrabass]

and wondering in what way Evensong is different from Vespers, of which many liturgical reconstructions have been mounted.

Compared with older versions of Vespers Evensong has a much simpler fixed structure, and only the Psalms, Lessons, and First Collect prescribed as variable parts. Western Vespers has more complex rules for the Psalms, Antiphons, Office Hymn, etc. Orthodox Vespers has an even more considerable body of variable hymnography.

[Miles Coverdale]

Most liturgical reconstructions, or at least the ones that I have heard/seen, attempt to reconstruct a particular historical event, or a specific feast in the liturgical year, as it might have been performed in the year X. Evensong, at least in the form in which it is broadcast on Radio 3, is not particularly susceptible to either of these treatments, given the paucity of music lists surviving from much over 100 years ago.

In many of the reconstructions that have been recorded/performed, much of the reconstruction involves transcribing the plainsong antiphons and other chants proper to the occasion. This doesn't really apply to Evensong, which essentially involves processing into the stalls, singing some music and reading some lessons and processing out again.

A few years ago I took part in a videoed reconstruction of a 1549 Prayerbook Communion Service for someone's PhD submission. An inordinate amount of time was taken poring over the minutiae of the rubrics, determining exactly the point at which certain actions were performed, etc, etc. A quick glance at one of Nick Sandon's volumes of the Use of Salisbury will give you some idea of the complexities involved. Again, this doesn't really apply to Evensong.

Just finding out what music was sung on a particular day in the past and singing it all again does not, at least in my view, constitute a 'liturgical reconstruction'.

[W.Kearns]

Having mused over this thread, I wonder whether the original question turns less upon whether BBC Radio 3 can recreate a specific event or style of worship and more upon how far the act of listening to a radio broadcast of a service makes the listener a worshipper? I realise, as I type, that my attempted paraphrase is clumsy, but can't help thinking that the present erudite - and very enjoyable - discussion may not be entirely what AL anticipated at the time of posting.

[jean]

...In many of the reconstructions that have been recorded/performed, much of the reconstruction involves transcribing the plainsong antiphons and other chants proper to the occasion. This doesn't really apply to Evensong, which essentially involves processing into the stalls, singing some music and reading some lessons and processing out again...

But isn't it a continuum, rather than a case of 'This is a reconstruction (because it needed so much work) - that isn't (because it didn't)'?

A few more random thoughts:

Some reconstructuions can be very precise, because the information is there; but the lack of music lists needn't preclude suggestions for what might have been.

A reconstruction can also be a liturgical event, if you've got a priest doing the priestly bits.

Tridentine masses have never been outlawed, though you used to have to ask permission, before Pope Benedict removed that necessity. A Sarum Use mass might be different, though; but if the suggestions made on this board for a suitable order of service for the re-interment of Richard III had been followed, the result could have been fairly called a reconstruction, even though the original event never happened and it was surprisingly difficult to pin down any polyphony that might have been sung. Whether the result could have counted as an actual mass would have depended on the ecclesiastical authorities.

...can't help thinking that the present erudite - and very enjoyable - discussion may not be entirely what AL anticipated at the time of posting.

As he deleted most of the content of his OP and hasn't been back since, who knows?

[Nevilevelis]

Having mused over this thread, I wonder whether the original question turns less upon whether BBC Radio 3 can recreate a specific event or style of worship and more upon how far the act of listening to a radio broadcast of a service makes the listener a worshipper? I realise, as I type, that my attempted paraphrase is clumsy, but can't help thinking that the present erudite - and very enjoyable - discussion may not be entirely what AL anticipated at the time of posting.

Yes, indeed. I attempted a musing on that point in my initial response. I'm sure AL is keeping a close eye on the thread's development, but perhaps his silence is the only comment required!

[AL]

Having mused over this thread, I wonder whether the original question turns less upon whether BBC Radio 3 can recreate a specific event or style of worship and more upon how far the act of listening to a radio broadcast of a service makes the listener a worshipper? I realise, as I type, that my attempted paraphrase is clumsy, but can't help thinking that the present erudite - and very enjoyable - discussion may not be entirely what AL anticipated at the time of posting.

Yes! This is what I was trying to get at, and you seem to have found a better way of phrasing it than I did..
I guess what I was trying to imply was the possibility of a liturgical reconstruction and a radio 3 broadcast serving the same function for certain people. Whilst I don't deny that many listen for the purposes of worship, or maybe even just to hear different choirs, I think that for some, it is a case of hearing the music in a liturgical context in order to gain an increased understanding.
Very interesting hearing everyone's thoughts though, and extremely useful reading.
And Jean, apologies for deleting my original content, I was trying to find a better way of phrasing it.

[ardcarp]

I'm a simple soul; but I still get a sort of feeling that you, dear AL, are regarding CE (as served up every Wednesday) as a 'liturgical reconstruction'. If so I beg to differ, but please put me right if that's not what you mean.

BTW the word 'liturgy' can surely apply to any fixed framework of worship that is widely adopted. Thus, however prot, Anglican CE is a liturgy, and one that has survived the test of time.

[DracoM]

Yup.

[Vox Humana]

BTW the word 'liturgy' can surely apply to any fixed framework of worship that is widely adopted.

My view too. I think it was probably one of the clerics of the Wordsworth/Fere era who made the comment about "liturgy" being applicable only to the communion/mass. It's probably not worth bothering about today.

[AL]

I'm a simple soul; but I still get a sort of feeling that you, dear AL, are regarding CE (as served up every Wednesday) as a 'liturgical reconstruction'. If so I beg to differ, but please put me right if that's not what you mean.

My fault for not thinking about the phrasing of the thread title. I also hasten to add that I am very definitely playing devil's advocate here in order to think about various arguments for/against.
I am not arguing with the fact that 'reconstruction' implies restoring something from the past, and that CE is a liturgy that is still very much alive today.
My interest lies primarily in the function that they serve. If we can think of Lit Recs as illuminating the MUSIC of the past in a new way through presenting it in the context of liturgy, then surely CE does the same thing (obviously with more recent music too)? The music is heard in a different way in this context to if it is just performed track after track on a CD. One can achieve the sense of 'eavesdropping' on a service, something which lit recs also strive to achieve.

I realise that I am probably fighting a losing battle here, but again it is really interesting hearing what you all have to say.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Reconstruction" is more properly a term used for reconstructing a particular performance of, say, Handel's Messiah. E.g. the first Dublin performance, or the first London performance. A religious service can never really be a reconstruction, even when the music is identical.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Reconstruction" is more properly a term used for reconstructing a particular performance of, say, Handel's Messiah. E.g. the first Dublin performance, or the first London performance. A religious service can never really be a reconstruction, even when the music is identical.

Yes - this is how I understand the word "reconstruction" in this context: a specific event, rather than an entire "genre" which AFAIK in the instance of Choral Evensong remains a "living" tradition.