BBC Singers performing Bach's Christmas Oratorio 10.12.15

[oddoneout]

and not everyone is as fussy as some of us are. ]

I don't think it's being fussy to expect a group of the stature/reputation/whatever of the BBCS to sing in tune and as a balanced ensemble.

[ardcarp]

BBC Singers are more likely to fill the hall. I’m sure that’s all there is to it.

I don't think that's quite all. The BBC spends a large amount on its orchestras and on the BBCS and have to use them to fill programme slots, otherwise what is the justification? I feel very bad about saying the following because we are talking about people's livelihoods. The BBC Singers hold full-time salaried posts with pensions. They rehearse for a set amount of hours each weekday, make recordings, and (obviously) give recitals at evenings and weekends. They also do valuable outreach work. The BBCS (as I understand it) are the only full-time salaried choir in the UK. Therefore it pains me, as one who is in favour of arts funding, wherever it comes from, to say that this may not be the best model for running a top-rate choir. The members are all great musicians and very good sight-readers. But, IMVHO, this does not necessarily add up to a world class unit A better way is to have a pool of singers (maybe on a 5-year contract guaranteeing a certain amount of work) with differing voice types which can be called upon according to the genre of music requiring to be sing.

I've probably aired this opinion before, so sorry folks, and sorry BBCS.

[Keraulophone]

Some words of wisdom from Sir David Willcocks that I quoted in his memorial thread:

"I must say, most of the faults which I’ve encountered with choirs have been through excessive vibrato, and the singers have been unable to control it adequately. They’ve got to learn to be able to control their voices. It’s basically a control of the emission of breath, and it takes very great care. Many singing teachers cultivate vibrato, quite rightly, in their singers, but they don’t seem to be able to vary it nor to be able to shut it off completely in those few instances where a straight sound is desirable."

Sir David, in conversation with Bruce Duffie in 1989, Evanston, IL.

[mercia]

Bach must have had accomplished trumpet players at his disposal

[ardcarp]

Taking that at face value, there were of course town trumpeters all over the place, e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Reiche

...and it's only within the past 60 years that natural trumpet players (such as Crispian Steele Perkins) have re-discovered the art sufficiently to make it sound (a) effortless and (b) in tune. I can remember a B minor mass in Coventry Cathedral c/1960s which proudly boasted 3 natural trumpets and they were awful. It's probable that Bach stretched the skill to and beyond the limit as he did for other instrumental players. It's a question of much debate whether Bach, the consummate professional, wrote within the ability range of singers and players available or whether his inspired quill just had to push the boundaries of the possible.

BTW I'm fairly sure the trumpets yesterday (inc the one in Grosser Herr) were modern piccolo instruments, though they may have been valved D trumpets.

[jean]

I don't think that's quite all...

It's not even any of it!

The BBC singers don't give public concerts that aren't broadcast. The dedicated groups fill halls, the BBC singers don't.

And ardcarp - what did you mean by

Well, I suppose microphones are forensic...

(Just curious!)

[doversoul1]

I don't think it's being fussy to expect a group of the stature/reputation/whatever of the BBCS to sing in tune and as a balanced ensemble.

I am one of those very fussy ones when it comes to early repertoires, so I hope you see what I meant

ardcarp
Yes, I imagine that’s their (BBCS’s) side of the story but I still think that from concert organisers’ point, BBC Singers must be a dependable name to attract less specialised audience / public. I am not sure if this is a good thing or not. It can be both, I suppose.

[ed.] OK jean. You must know better than I do (no added implications or meanings).

[Pulcinella]

Jean

I think he means that they are particularly unforgiving and tend to accentuate things like wobbles.
There have been comments on opera broadcasts in which attendees have not been as bothered by the sounds produced on stage as those listening at home.

[mercia]

The BBC singers don't give public concerts that aren't broadcast.

is that correct ? as a small example they will be giving a Christmas concert local to me later this month which I am pretty sure will not be broadcast

[jean]

is that correct ? as a small example they will be giving a Christmas concert local to me later this month which I am pretty sure will not be broadcast

In my earlier post I was more cautious - I said most of their concerts weren't broadcast!

I base my claim on keeping a close eye on public concerts of early music I might manage to get to, and I have never seen a concert of theirs advertised with this repertoire. But of course their range is much wider. What are they doing for you, mercia?

[mercia]

What are they doing for you, mercia?

its one of these Dylan Thomas things

http://www.bbc.co.uk/singers/events/by/date/2015/12

I guess one of the repeat concerts might be broadcast, but I doubt it will be 'ours' - I look forward to being proved wrong

[jean]

Jean

I think he means that they are particularly unforgiving and tend to accentuate things like wobbles.

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks.

[jean]

its one of these Dylan Thomas things

http://www.bbc.co.uk/singers/events/by/date/2015/12

I guess one of the repeat concerts might be broadcast, but I doubt it will be 'ours' - I look forward to being proved wrong

My search terms were too narrow!

This is the repertoire they excel in.

[oddoneout]

I am one of those very fussy ones when it comes to early repertoires, so I hope you see what I meant

I knew what you meant but my gripe is that stylistics, HIPP considerations aside, yesterday's performance was plain bad singing.
The amateur choir I sing with has problems occasionally with unsatisfactory voices, but as there is no formal audition process that is a risk we take. On the plus side it means greater accessibility, and overall the pluses outweigh the cons. BBCS don't have that to deal with and should be able to sort out problems with individual voices, and more to the point the singers should be aware of what they are doing and improve it where necessary. I do wonder if anyone ever sits down and listens to recordings with an ear unencumbered by the BBCS hype, and also whether the singers themselves are allowed and encouraged to be critical of their performances.
But hey what do I know - I'm just an amateur warbler with no musical knowledge.

[oddoneout]

Jean

I think he means that they are particularly unforgiving and tend to accentuate things like wobbles..

Do they accentuate, or just relay what's there without the filters that we as humans tend to employ, especially when actually in the venue and experiencing it as it happens? If you have chosen to go to a particular concert because you are keen on/familiar with the performers I would suggest you are already more likely to ignore the negative or less than satisfactory, by and large. The atmosphere of a live event for those present can also be an effective filter - one gets caught up in the excitement and emotions. On the whole that is probably a good thing. I have sat next to someone who was destructively critical of all aspects of the concert she was at; it was not a good experience and one had to wonder why she was there at all. The downside is the risk of complacency on the part of the performers. Constructive criticism - being a critical friend - enables improvement.