Advent Sunday: Chapel of St John's College, Cambridge Sun, 29th Nov

[Magnificat]

I'm not being critical VCC - I understand you are expressing tolerance, but please can someone re-assure me - that there is not a demand amongst congregations (semi-regular or Christmas only) for God So Loved The World. My heart sings when I hear that dreary piece of music. Thank goodness I don't have to sing it any more!

CS

I'm not saying there is a demand for it.

I am saying that it is used in some places because, I presume, the words do have relevance to the season even though it comes from a Passiontide work.

I don't dislike the piece personally but it wouldn't be considered an Advent or Christmas carol by the vast majority who go to church regularly or otherwise.

Similarly the Magnificat is a canticle for Evensong even though the words are appropriate for the season.

At St Albans they even sing the Benedictus ( in the gorgeous setting by Philip Moore ) in their lessons and carols from time to time. The words are again quite appropriate but it would not be regarded as a carol ( or even known) by most in the congregation.



Ardcarp,

George Guest said that the only reason people go to St John's is to hear the music not to see the chapel.

As well as being uninteresting architecturally and gloomy inside it also has the most uncomfortable pews/stalls in Christendom. The only possible advantage it has over KCC is that you are not trampled under foot by tourists!

VCC.

[ardcarp]

George Guest said that the only reason people go to St John's is to hear the music not to see the chapel.

Very probably. I've posted along these lines this before, but Deans and Chapters (especially those who try to economise on their music staff) might well consider how full their Medieval piles (mock or otherwise) would be at Christmas and Easter without the exceptional music on offer.

[Old Grumpy]

please can someone re-assure me - that there is not a demand amongst congregations (semi-regular or Christmas only) for God So Loved The World. My heart sings when I hear that dreary piece of music.

Really??

I think you perhaps meant sinks...


OG

[oddoneout]

Going off at a slight but I hope permissible tangent, what choral pieces could be included in a concert which might be viewed or billed as a Christmas concert and therefore contain the usual suspects, but could make a nod to the fact that most such events are in Advent? Preferably without frightening the paying public too much. JSB is an obvious go-to, and there are, as already noted some rousing hymns/carols for audience participation, but perhaps the collective knowledge here could come up with something less obvious?

[ardcarp]

It is hopeless to hold back the Tide of Yule, which traditionally was not celebrated until Christmas Day. Wells Cathedral, for instance, holds its own Carol Service on Boxing Day. A few of the Anglo-Catholic places still show similar restraint. But with the major stores beginning to trade on the Xmas Factor in October, it seems only reasonable that musicians should feel no guilt about Christmassy concerts a couple of weeks into December. I am impressed by the programming of some of the excellent Chamber Choirs around the UK. Leicestershire Chorale, for instance, has themed concerts, this year's being Mother and Child:

http://www.leicestershirechorale.org.uk/concerts/viewconcert.html?concert=68

I will find out the exact contents and post it up.

Given that the proper feeling of Advent is penitential, (with all that Watching, Waiting and stuff) there is apart from all that Bach....

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/LCY/M&C-Advent.htm

...the opportunity to do Requiems. The B minor Mass seems to be popular around this time too, though despite the 'minor' bit, I find this a most exuberant work.

For an out-and-out Advent CD, one of my favourites is Advent at St Paul's....

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55463

...with the late and much missed John Scott working his magic on that choir. Drop Down Ye Heavens by Richard Lloyd is deliciously poignant, while Andrew Carter's arrangement of O Come O Come Emmanuel has to be heard to be believed.

[mopsus]

Wells Cathedral, for instance, holds its own Carol Service on Boxing Day.

I think Wells stopped doing that a few years ago. (The practice was probably very unpopular with the parents of choristers.) This year their carol service is on December 22nd.

In defence of Kings, they do have a premiere performance every year in their 9 Lessons service, and many of the premiered pieces appear again in future years. There have also been some minor tweaks to the service, though more to such matters as who reads which lesson (you don't get a representative of Eton every year now) rather than to the actual words.

[DracoM]

Ref the Scott - yes, and yes.

[ardcarp]

I think Wells stopped doing that a few years ago. (The practice was probably very unpopular with the parents of choristers.) This year their carol service is on December 22nd.

Ooops, sorry. I recall attending Malcolm Archer's last Wells Carol Service (on a Boxing Day, I'm pretty sure) with the combined boy and girl choristers. It was stunning.

[Nick Armstrong]

I am speechless with admiration for the John's broadcast. Choirs, especially those with young choristers have peaks and troughs, and surely they are on the highest of peaks at the moment? The treble line clearly had some fine voices with the musicianship to use them.

Having listened live last weekend, I listened again today, this time using a recording from DAB Radio and pumped through the main HiFi - I too was filled with admiration for the choir's performance in this service.

... Of the more trad carols, I cannot think of a better performance of A Spotless Rose. It was perfect even before that terrific baritone solo began.

Yes but even more gripping for me was the Howells "Westminster" Magnificat which followed it. What a performance... and what a piece!!! I've been a Howells junkie for 35 years but bizarrely the Westminster service has eluded me.

I confess I used the fingertip control allowed by beaming from iTunes to the HiFi, to listen repeatedly, I think 6 or 7 times

How can I not have heard this before?! And the crowning moment of all, the harmonic sideslip (someone will be able to give the scientific term!) which occurs in the organ part as the trebles descend from on high on the word "Abraham"....

...

Rubbernecker late of this parish calls such felicities "creamy moments" ... I have added another one to my list of "creamy" favourites today

[quiretenor]

How can I not have heard this before?! And the crowning moment of all, the harmonic sideslip (someone will be able to give the scientific term!) which occurs in the organ part as the trebles descend from on high on the word "Abraham"....

...

Rubbernecker late of this parish calls such felicities "creamy moments" ... I have added another one to my list of "creamy" favourites today [/COLOR]

Hi Caliban,

The chromatic harmony to which you are referring is HH at his best (the whole setting, actually) and I'm not sure there is any other way of describing it but as magic! But technically, the slip as you say happens in bars 78/79 when a chord of F sharp major 7 - with a typical false relation around the third of that chord (A sharp/A natural) worked through in bar 78 - slides up to a chord of G major 9 - an A at the top in the organ part! Both chords are in second inversion too with their 5th - highest note - in the bass. F sharp minor returns in root position in bar 80 and is the home key of these canticles, so the move to G major at this point is remarkable, but not so much for HH! He sets out his stall early on in the organ intro. for this setting where that chord of F sharp minor (again in 2nd inversion) alternates with a chord on D minor in root position - equally magical!

There is an excellent recording of it by the 'home team' here! http://www.westminster-abbey.org/mus...tminster-abbey

The Abbey was very fortunate indeed when Howells wrote the equally fine, lyrical setting in B minor for the Church Music Society Festival on May 17, 1956.

QT

[quiretenor]

Here's the Nunc dimittis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhKibCMuvAA

[DracoM]

Harking back a trifle: that Howells Spotless Rose is indeed exquisite.
YET
I keep coming back to the more innovative balance in the John's repertoire: just look what the first three or four choir carols were - starting with the MacDowall, including quietly intoned plainchant which is the bedrock the service keeps coming back to.

I like this interaction always implicit on the John's thinking about Advent - the future, and past interacting, the celebratory, the prophetic, the penitential, the robust congregational and the intimately choral.

[ardcarp]

The Westminster service is one which, like Calibs, I know of but haven't knowingly heard (or sung/played). Of course it's classic Howells. It has his distinctive fingerprints all over it, not just harmonically, but also in word setting.....and a Gloria often seems to elicit a rumpty-tum rhythm from the organ. (I can do technical language too ) But he managed to repeat his winning formula without embarrassment and without any reproach from his admirers! I suppose we all have our faves, and St Paul's closely followed by Gloucester are mine. Shall we start a sondage among the Forumistas?

[Nick Armstrong]

Hi Caliban,

The chromatic harmony to which you are referring is HH at his best (the whole setting, actually) and I'm not sure there is any other way of describing it but as magic! But technically, the slip as you say happens in bars 78/79 when a chord of F sharp major 7 - with a typical false relation around the third of that chord (A sharp/A natural) worked through in bar 78 - slides up to a chord of G major 9 - an A at the top in the organ part! Both chords are in second inversion too with their 5th - highest note - in the bass. F sharp minor returns in root position in bar 80 and is the home key of these canticles, so the move to G major at this point is remarkable, but not so much for HH! He sets out his stall early on in the organ intro. for this setting where that chord of F sharp minor (again in 2nd inversion) alternates with a chord on D minor in root position - equally magical!

There is an excellent recording of it by the 'home team' here! http://www.westminster-abbey.org/mus...tminster-abbey

The Abbey was very fortunate indeed when Howells wrote the equally fine, lyrical setting in B minor for the Church Music Society Festival on May 17, 1956.

QT

Many thanks for this quiretenor, especially for the harmonic explanation, and the links!

I would have to say that the B minor service (though very good) is not in the Howells Premiership, to my ears, and the same goes for one or two of the others (the St John's service which was sung by New College a few weeks back is another example) which I've always placed outside 'my' hitherto top three of St Paul's, Gloucester and Coll Reg. To which I would now add Westminster...

Shall we start a sondage among the Forumistas?

Sound away, ardy

[Nick Armstrong]

There is an excellent recording of it by the 'home team'

ALAC files downloaded from Hyperion, and listened to with huge pleasure! Thanks again!