CE Southwell Minster 4th Nov 2015

[Triforium]

St T NYC did the same psalms (same chants for 22, Hylton Stewart for 23) on November 4th and the difference between the pointing is most striking. How awkward is the ST NYC English Psalter version.

That would be John Scott's Psalter, aka The New St. Paul's Cathedral Psalter, aka The Anglican Psalter.

[Finzi4ever]

That would be John Scott's Psalter, aka The New St. Paul's Cathedral Psalter, aka The Anglican Psalter.

My preference is still for the Oxford or Worcester psalters.
Who recalls using the 1963 Revised psalter? We used it at Ely in the 70s; anywhere else? Is it available online anywhere these days?

Every copy was hand-pointed in red biro. RJ, did you have to spend many hours doing that for AWW?

Ever since I have been at a disadvantage, seemingly misquoting Coverdale's verses. Ho-hum.

[light_calibre_baritone]

That would be John Scott's Psalter, aka The New St. Paul's Cathedral Psalter, aka The Anglican Psalter.

Uh, the New St. Paul's Cathedral Psalter (dark red cover?) is very strangely pointed imho.

[Miles Coverdale]

It is very unfair for DoMs, singers and musical snobs to rubbish Alan Gray, Wesley, and others composers in the Anglican tradition just because they are unable to do their music justice in performance.VCC

I'm not sure that's why they don't like them...

[Roger Judd]

re the Revised Psalter at Ely, F4E, my mind has gone a total blank over that. I certainly didn't do the pointing, the chant book was quite enough! Perhaps you started using the revised version after I had left, in 1973.
RJ

[ardcarp]

Was the Revised Psalter the one that changed the text a bit? If so, and if I remember it correctly, it fell between two stools (1) not being a translation into 'modern' English and (2) tinkering with the poetic magnificence of Coverdale.

If we're talking of pointing, the English Psalter (ed.Percy Buck and others?) was a brilliant attempt at getting a natural flow of words, and its preface weighed against drawling out of syllables (as at Southwell) or of gabbling (as lately of NCO). However it did mess with the biblical verse structure, often conflating two verses into one. The Oxford Psalter seems a reasonable compromise. Ming you, any choir, especially one with a mannered chanting style, can ruin the intentions of any pointer of psalters!

I'm /speaking.from/ long:
and/ probab-ly/ faulty /memory:
so/-/ stand:
to/ be cor-/rec/ted.

How NOT to do it, BTW.

[mopsus]

Salisbury (I think) used the Revised Psalter for some years, and St David's still does, at least according to its notes for visiting choirs. I'm not sure whether it was in this psalter or in a Bible reading that I once heard a reference to a zebra!

It's possible to be a devotee of 20th-century modernism and enjoy Wesley and Gray; I do both.

[teamsaint]

Salisbury (I think) used the Revised Psalter for some years, and St David's still does, at least according to its notes for visiting choirs. I'm not sure whether it was in this psalter or in a Bible reading that I once heard a reference to a zebra!

It's possible to be a devotee of 20th-century modernism and enjoy Wesley and Gray; I do both.

if you can find that reference, I imagine Mary would like to hear from you !!

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/qt/bibleanimals.htm

[Philip]

Great to get a snapshot of what I hear on a regular basis at the Minster. Its a lovely setting, and from an organist's point of view you can use most of the screen organ against the choir so there's always plenty of colour to be heard. Simon Hogan really does a wonderful job with his accompaniments.

I don't find the psalms mannered, but I guess I've got used to the style. With a reference to a point made earlier, the Southwell Psalter does amend the verse structure in places (if not in these two). Paul Hale specialises in 'extraordinary rits', he does it all the time in psalms and hymns, when you've got a big crowd singing it makes quite the effect.

If you've not been to Southwell, then I'd absolutely encourage you to - they put a whole term's music on the website so you can pick and choose your day if you so wish!

If you think this Gray is bad (which I don't) try the M&N in B flat. The F minor is a fine setting though in my view. Nothing wrong with SSW either, I'd not be without Ascribe, The Wilderness or Blessed be the God, and some of the shorter pieces are exquisite (Thou wilt keep him and Cast me not away). Its all of an era, same as Stainer, but as long as its balanced with other repertoire I don't see any problem in including it.

[ardcarp]

Talking of psalms and pointing, one of John Scott's trade marks was simply to miss out a bit of chant if there were not enough syllables to fit the music.

[Finzi4ever]

re the Revised Psalter at Ely, F4E, my mind has gone a total blank over that. I certainly didn't do the pointing, the chant book was quite enough! Perhaps you started using the revised version after I had left, in 1973.
RJ

Ah, the chant book - an impressive achievement and beautifully written - well done, sir!
It def. was the revised psalter in your day, not least since the books were decidedly tatty through use and had to be replaced by typed-up A4 folders of same by the middle of the decade.

[light_calibre_baritone]

Talking of psalms and pointing, one of John Scott's trade marks was simply to miss out a bit of chant if there were not enough syllables to fit the music.

That's why I find the New St. Paul's Psalter a bit odd...

[Miles Coverdale]

Talking of psalms and pointing, one of John Scott's trade marks was simply to miss out a bit of chant if there were not enough syllables to fit the music.

Indeed. I remember trying to sight-read from the St Paul's psalter when I depped there on occasion. It could be very difficult trying to remember which sign meant what. In some psalms there were omissions in the very first verse, and it could be verse 5 before you actually sang the chant in its entirety. I think I'm right in saying that one of the first things Malcolm Archer did wen he went there was to stop using that psalter.

[chrisjstanley]

ardcarp, clearly, I was wrong in assuming (as I don't have a copy to hand) that St T NYC used the English Psalter. Ashfield's Southwell Psalter was basically an adapted English Psalter (by hand, often by superannuated choristers) with a MS chant book to go with it. No idea what they use nowadays. Do any choirs use ipads or electronic delivery systems?. Or do they still rollout the Roneo?

The affectations and quirks leading to weird pronunciations, phrasing and stressing at Southwell can't be attributed to Ashfield of course.

bws
Chris S

[ardcarp]

Do any choirs use ipads or electronic delivery systems?. Or do they still rollout the Roneo?

Roneo. Ah, there's a word from the past. I think you've missed out a few steps between that and reading straight from the i-pad! These days if you tip up to a rehearsal you are likely to be handed a sheaf of photocopies which may or may not (a) be in order or (b) have holes punched to fit your black folder. One wonders how many copyrights have been broken along the way.

How long will it be, as we saunter past the choir stalls with their candle-holders and misericords, before we find screens set in to the wooden music desk? And what happens when IT ALL GOES PEAR-SHAPED?

The latter bit worries me in the thatre pit, where often as not the MD will not only be reading from a screen, but filling in on the keyboard to make up for the reduced size of the pit band. Maybe he/she could do it all from memory anyway. Not so the deputizing lay-clerk!