Missa Corona Spinea - Taverner/Tallis Scholars

[vinteuil]

... I have been listening with much pleasure this morning to the Missa Corona Spinea performed by The Sixteen / Harry Christophers on hyperion (now on helios).

Do any of the experts here have any views on the respective merits of the Tallis Scholars' and The Sixteen's performances in this work?

[ardcarp]

By replying I'm not volunteering as an expert, and I've no opinion on the relative merits! But did you listen to the Tallis Scholars' CD of the week as per the OP....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06l1b84

And then there's Christchurch Oxford's CD......

http://www.discogs.com/Taverner-Choir-Of-Christ-Church-Cathedral-Oxford-The-Francis-Grier-Missa-Corona-Spinea/release/2889272

.....excerpts of which might be around on Youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU47Ri17F8

[Gabriel Jackson]

By replying I'm not volunteering as an expert, and I've no opinion on the relative merits! But did you listen to the Tallis Scholars' CD of the week as per the OP....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06l1b84

And then there's Christchurch Oxford's CD......

http://www.discogs.com/Taverner-Choir-Of-Christ-Church-Cathedral-Oxford-The-Francis-Grier-Missa-Corona-Spinea/release/2889272

.....excerpts of which might be around on Youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU47Ri17F8

And this: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Delphian/DCD34023

[ardcarp]

Thanks Gabriel. Also some Youtube clips of this, e.g......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXVNqu6TvE4

[DracoM]

Yes, that St Mary's CD is a revelation too.

[Simon Biazeck]

And this: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Delphian/DCD34023

That's terrific and quite high enough (yes, at written pitch) for my taste. What a fabulous voice that is doing the intonations too! I feel a purchase coming on!

[Nick Armstrong]

Unscholarly me wants to ask how it can be known that 'impressment' did not take place?

Even more unscholarly me wanted to ask if 'impressment' was a term of art among Singing Types for the wearing of very tight undergarments (stratospheric treble singing, for the use of)

I must chuck in a discordant note - I find the Tallis Scholars 'trademark' high treble/soprano line recordings pretty tiresome to the ears - this 'Corona Spinea' recording no more or less so than a number of recent ones I've tried. This is no doubt sacrilege in the Choral precincts of the Forum and I will be set upon for daring to have a non-specialist personal opinion, but there it is...

[Nick Armstrong]

For what it's worth, I must say I am really enjoying your informative, myth-busting common sense posts! Excellent contributions all.

Agreed! I'm learning a lot. Presumably the Bowers referred to above is Roger, who was DoM of my college back in the day (I recall Geraint Bowen - who was organ scholar at the time - talking about 'Roger' unearthing music by some unheard-of stone-age bloke called "Sheppard" ... 3 decades later, one of my favourite composers!)

[DracoM]

Not at all.
Opinions on the Tallis Scholars can sometimes be varied.
AND anyway, this forum, ANY Forum, is open for / designed to encourage debate and opinion. There is no 'received wisdom'.
Speak on....!

[Nick Armstrong]

Not at all.
Opinions on the Tallis Scholars can sometimes be varied.
AND anyway, this forum, ANY Forum, is open for / designed to encourage debate and opinion. There is no 'received wisdom'.
Speak on....!

Oh yes, I have no intention of remaining silent! I was merely anticipating the possible reaction

The cloisters of the Choir can be a scary place on a foggy November day... (I feel like Sean Connery in "Name of the Rose" ... )

[Gabriel Jackson]

Woa.......so if composers had to rely on 'local talent', how / why did they ever expect that local pick-up gang to cope with some of the most complex and high-lying treble lines ever written? Why would you write music so regularly for ensembles you doubted might cope?

There are a number of issues here. I think. Some composers today (and in the past too, of course) write/have written music that is too difficult for the performers they are writing for. That kind of misjudgement usually stems from a lack of experience - when I was younger I certainly wrote things that were unreasonably difficult for the singers they were written for. On the other hand, since the likes of Taverner were also choir-trainers, they are unlikely to have misjudged the level of skill of the singers they were working with. But...we don't know what degree of accuracy of pitch, rhythm, tuning etc. they expected. Are the standards we expect today higher than what was normal in the 16th century?

I am not sure that the treble parts in the Eton choirbook etc. are that hard. Conductors who perform and record this repertoire with children today (and sometimes only record it, because it isn't always practical to perform 18-minute Votive Antiphons at Evensong) will tell you that t isn't the pitches or rhythms they find difficult so much as the unfamiliarity of the musical world of those pieces: the length, the superficial sameness of the music, which makes it difficult for them to orient themselves within the musical flow, to get their heads round what is going on in these massive pieces. That unfamiliarity would not have a been a problem for the singers the music was written for, because, of course, that was the only polyphony they sang.

[Simon Biazeck]

I must chuck in a discordant note - I find the Tallis Scholars 'trademark' high treble/soprano line recordings pretty tiresome to the ears - this 'Corona Spinea' recording no more or less so than a number of recent ones I've tried. This is no doubt sacrilege in the Choral precincts of the Forum and I will be set upon for daring to have a non-specialist personal opinion, but there it is...

I think your taste is spot on re. the wearing nature of high pitch in this rep. I also share that view, and for the reasons stated above by Vox Humana and my own opinions on vocal technique, I very much doubt it is authentic. Very little will be in terms of sound quality and pronunciation, but we can quite reasonably get close to pitch, tuning and tempo. There's enough clear theory on these matters. Pitch was always a practical matter, as it is today, but certain works, such as Missa Corona Spinea have such a wide overall range that I doubt 16th c. choirs would have considered transposition.

David Wulstan's home-spun musicology on high pitch transposition is based on pretty shaky evidence... almost none, in fact! I seem to recall he thought that because chiavette (high clef) scoring often necessitated downwards transposition (pretty much accepted these days) then works scored in chiavi naturali (natural clefs) should be transposed upwards as if in counter balance. Vox H. will correct and/or expand, I'm sure.

The recent Tallis Scholars recording is undoubtedly worthy of praise on technical grounds, but that is where it ends for me. Their director has little or nothing to say about the music's performance and relies upon the extraordinary talent and musical creativity in front of him which often comes cross-fertilized from other ensembles and cathedral choirs. At least The Sixteen's MD has a view on the music although it can sometimes be rather predictable.

Saucer of milk for one... finished!

[Nick Armstrong]

I'll have a saucer of what you're having, Mr B

[Simon Biazeck]

I'll have a saucer of what you're having, Mr B

[ardcarp]

their director has nothing to say about the music's performance and relies upon the extraordinary talent and musical creativity in front of him

A tad harsh, maybe? I agree to the extent that to get a good choir, you need to invite the right people to join it! I have found PP a little 'mechanical' in the past, but I did feel that in Corona Spinea he (or maybe they) had given something extra, a new subtlety if you like.

Agree that Harry Christophers always brings musicality to what the Sixteen do.