Missa Corona Spinea - Taverner/Tallis Scholars

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Simon Biazeck

    #61
    VOX:

    To be fair, Wulstan was only developing a view of pitch that already been gaining ground during the earlier twentieth century (Fellowes had already noted that transposition upwards by a minor third often best suited Byrd's music and there were others before him). The issue of "chiavette" is entirely independent from that of any pitch standard.
    Yes, I am aware of these distinctions. I make a living from performing and editing 15th, 16th & some early 17th c. music, but my main area of interest is Franco Flemish rep. from the High Renaissance - Gombert et al.

    Roger Bowers agrees that pieces in high and low clefs were performed within the same compasses as those in "normal" clefs, but is no more prescriptive than that. He carefully avoids using the word "transposition", pointing out that, for Tudor singers, it wasn't a question of moving a piece's pitch up or down, but simply of finding a pitch for each piece that fell within the standard voices ranges.
    Assuming we are talking about the very same article, I read the Bowers some time ago and Parrott's response to it, which makes some interesting points and rightly points out his (Bowers') "personal aversion" to substantial downwards transposition of high clef scores.

    On the issue of the use of the term "transposition", whatever the thought processes of 16th c. performers were, we all know what it means. It's interesting and valuable info., nevertheless. I sing a great deal of chant from four line staves in C and F clefs, so I know the feeling; I have never found it useful to impose key signatures, although some colleagues find that a must. Interestingly, Michael Praetorius, uses the word "transposition" when discussing clef combinations and performance practice, and blows Bowers' preference for transposition done a whole tone of high clefs out the water. (Yes, early 17th. c, but that's fine by me!) An organ book by Giovanni Croce reserves the whole tone transp. for natural clef combinations only, I seem to recall.

    All of which takes us some way from the present discussion, but thanks for indulging me!

    Comment

    • Vox Humana
      Full Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 1263

      #62
      Originally posted by light_calibre_baritone View Post
      There are similar moments in the gimel sections of Tallis' Gaude Gloriosa; an amazing gulf between high treble and low basses.

      Yes. Also, simple Treble and Bass duets are not uncommon in this music. It's the duo of basses that make Taverner's et expecto unusual. I have an old Saga LP (anyone remember those frightful things?) of Corona spinea sung at written pitch by the Oxford Schola Cantorum under John Byrt that puts over this passage superbly.

      Comment

      • Vox Humana
        Full Member
        • Dec 2012
        • 1263

        #63
        Originally posted by Simon Biazeck View Post
        Assuming we are talking about the very same article, I read the Bowers some time ago and Parrott's response to it, which makes some interesting points and rightly points out his (Bowers') "personal aversion" to substantial downwards transposition of high clef scores.
        I think it might be my turn to apologise if I sounded patronising, which certainly wasn't my intention. I may be grasping the wrong end of the snake here, but I have a feeling that this particular article was about Monteverdi's Vespers. If so, that's a somewhat different kettle of fish (different era) and an area in which I don't meddle - and I haven't followed these particular arguments. Bowers has dealt with Tudor pitch and scoring in more than one article, but the crucial one for this question is his "The Vocal Scoring, Choral Balance and Performing Pitch of Latin Church Music in England, c.1500-58" in the Journal of the Royal Musical Association 112 (1987).

        Comment

        • Simon Biazeck

          #64
          Originally posted by Vox Humana View Post
          I think it might be my turn to apologise if I sounded patronising, which certainly wasn't my intention. I may be grasping the wrong end of the snake here, but I have a feeling that this particular article was about Monteverdi's Vespers. If so, that's a somewhat different kettle of fish (different era) and an area in which I don't meddle - and I haven't followed these particular arguments. Bowers has dealt with Tudor pitch and scoring in more than one article, but the crucial one for this question is his "The Vocal Scoring, Choral Balance and Performing Pitch of Latin Church Music in England, c.1500-58" in the Journal of the Royal Musical Association 112 (1987).
          Not at all! Yes, it is the Monteverdi article I have read. I will now look up the relevant one. It's all good! :cool1:

          Comment

          • Simon Biazeck

            #65
            Originally posted by Vox Humana View Post
            "The Vocal Scoring, Choral Balance and Performing Pitch of Latin Church Music in England, c.1500-58" in the Journal of the Royal Musical Association 112 (1987).
            £25 on JStor! What a racket!

            Comment

            • Vox Humana
              Full Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 1263

              #66
              Ouch! That's steep.

              Comment

              • ardcarp
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 11102

                #67
                I've got Fayrfax's Regale Magnificat open in front of me right now....well two copies actually, the first an old (but perfectly respectable) Dom Anselm Hughes edition with the tactus in minims and the second an edition by Frank LL Harrison in crotchets. (I must say I prefer singing from the longer note-values myself, though it matters not.) The 3-octave compass F (below bass stave) to F (top line treble stave) is rigorously adhered to. Were I planning a performance of this, I would try it out up a semitone or maybe a tone to find out what sounded best with the singers available. This might apply especially to the two-part sicut erat for treble and bass, where the bottom F might sound a bit growly, and the result might be better with a high-flying (not that high) treble.

                Surely this sort of practical performing decision was exactly the same for singers 500 years ago as it is today?

                BTW I have sung this several times; also another Mag by Fayrfax ed. Paul Doe. We always did them higher than our printed editions, I think a minor third higher. The reason IIRC was to re-distribute parts from (in modern parlance) SATBarB to SAATB. It seems to be the range of the middle part which is a problem...boringly middling for a tenor and excruciatingly low for an alto. Transposing everything up solves the problem...for modern singers anyway.

                All this is probably obvious to the EM experts and has probably already been discussed upthread. I'm just making the same old point about pragmatism and practicality.
                Last edited by ardcarp; 04-11-15, 14:38.

                Comment

                • Vox Humana
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 1263

                  #68
                  Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                  I've got Fayrfax's Regale Magnificat open in front of me right now....well two copies actually, the first an old (but perfectly respectable) Dom Anselm Hughes edition with the tactus in minims and the second an edition by Frank LL Harrison in crotchets. (I must say I prefer singing from the longer note-values myself, though it matters not.) The 3-octave compass F (below bass stave) to F (top line treble stave) is rigorously adhered to. Were I planning a performance of this, I would try it out up a semitone or maybe a tone to find out what sounded best with the singers available. This might apply especially to the two-part sicut erat for treble and bass, where the bottom F might sound a bit growly, and the result might be better with a high-flying (not that high) treble.

                  Surely this sort of practical performing decision was exactly the same for singers 500 years ago as it is today?
                  Well, similar, certainly. We don't know what sort of aesthetic values Tudor singers applied, but we can surely assume that they would have chosen a pitch that suited all their different voices. One consideration here is the countertenor voice, which, when Fayrfax wrote this piece rarely ascended above a written f' (before c.1500 the tenor and countertenor ranges were identical but their upper limits gradually diverged as the sixteenth century progressed, no doubt to allow those who had good top notes to exploit them and to be kind to baritones who struggled to reach f'). The top note of Fayrfax's countertenor part is indeed f', so while the other four voices could all easily shift up a tone, there is less scope in this part. I do think we have to accept that the written compasses that evolved were those that were found to fit the different voice types most practically, simply because it would be daft for composers consistently to write impractical ranges.

                  Comment

                  • Simon Biazeck

                    #69
                    Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                    All this is probably obvious to the EM experts and has probably already been discussed upthread. I'm just making the same old point about pragmatism and practicality.
                    It IS worth saying again! We could go on all day about what we think or know they did but it makes not a jot of difference for us. We must always be practical and sensible in these matters. There's no point in stressing your singers out by trying to make a point. I've seen it so many times and it's a certain sort of MD and/or musicologist with little or no understanding of signing and more specifically an inability to respond to the people in front of him or her.

                    Here endeth the lesson!

                    Comment

                    • Vox Humana
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 1263

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Simon Biazeck View Post
                      It IS worth saying again! We could go on all day about what we think or know they did but it makes not a jot of difference for us.
                      I thought we were discussing Tudor singers, but maybe I misunderstood. How singers today make the best of the music is up to them and their MDs.

                      Comment

                      • Simon Biazeck

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Vox Humana View Post
                        I thought we were discussing Tudor singers, but maybe I misunderstood. How singers today make the best of the music is up to them and their MDs.
                        Yes, certainly, but in relation to a new cd of the work... I don't think you misunderstood. That seems very unlikely on the strength of your posts!

                        I was merely trying to reinforce Ardcarp's comment. Responsible performer's must weigh up the historical aspects of performance practice. Your posts are giving us so much useful information in order to do this. THANK YOU!!

                        Comment

                        • Vox Humana
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 1263

                          #72

                          Comment

                          • Y Mab Afradlon
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 153

                            #73
                            The Mundy piece that Draco referred to in #11 is the splendid Vox Patris celestis. They also used to sing the large scale O splendor gloriae by Taverner.
                            Last edited by Y Mab Afradlon; 05-11-15, 22:56.

                            Comment

                            • light_calibre_baritone

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Y Mab Afradlon View Post
                              The Mundy piece that Draco referred to in #11 is the splendid Vox Patris celestis. They also used to sing the large scale O splendor gloriae by Taverner.
                              Did Vox Patris AND Tallis Gaude Gloriosa with a well known consort recently... The Mundy was new to me, but so very, very lush.

                              Comment

                              • vinteuil
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 13197

                                #75
                                Originally posted by light_calibre_baritone View Post
                                Did Vox Patris AND Tallis Gaude Gloriosa with a well known consort recently... The Mundy was new to me, but so very, very lush.

                                ... good Lord!

                                Either sex can be a lush. It's someone who drinks a lot and enjoys drinking a lot---not necessarily an alcoholic, but someone whose drinking is noticeable. It can be used teasingly or as an insult, but even if someone teases you (or whoever), there's probably some truth in it, and it probably means you're overdoing the alcohol.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X