Favourite hymns: best suited words and tune

[Pulcinella]

There’s a wideness in God’s mercy - Corvedale
When I survey - Rockingham

Charles Wesley said he’d ditch all his hymns if he could have written ‘When I survey’. (Or words to that effect!)

The Revised English Hymnal states the second line of ‘There is a green hill’ should be ‘outside the city wall’ making more sense than the usual ‘without a city wall’, which as a youngster I thought - why mention there was no wall.

Whereas the Scottish one would probably suggest 'outwith'.

[mopsus]

'The 25th of March; the Day of the Annunciation; she was conceived of the Holy Ghost.' School Catechism.

Sonata No. 1 in D Minor, C. 90 "The Annunciation": Praeludium - Aria and Variations - Finale - YouTube

This has started a related train of thought about hymn tunes which deserve words that will give them a place in hymn books again. For example, I've a soft spot for the one that is variously known as 'St Alban' or 'St Justin'.

[Petrushka]

The Revised English Hymnal states the second line of ‘There is a green hill’ should be ‘outside the city wall’ making more sense than the usual ‘without a city wall’, which as a youngster I thought - why mention there was no wall.

Our choir master explained that one to us young boys, as he did with anything that was odd or seemed not to make sense.

[vinteuil]

Our choir master explained that one to us young boys, as he did with anything that was odd or seemed not to make sense.

" God of God, Light of Light,
lo, He abhors not the virgin's womb;
very God, begotten not created... "

always a good one for starters

[Vox Humana]

How shall I sing that majesty (Coe Fen)
Glorious Things of thee are Spoken (Abbot's Leigh)
The day thou gavest, Lord (St Clement)
For all the saints (Sine nomine)
All my hope on God is founded (Michael)
There’s a wideness in God’s mercy (Corvedale) - but only in the anthem version.

[JSB Rules]

There’s a wideness in God’s mercy - Corvedale
When I survey - Rockingham

Charles Wesley said he’d ditch all his hymns if he could have written ‘When I survey’. (Or words to that effect!)

The Revised English Hymnal states the second line of ‘There is a green hill’ should be ‘outside the city wall’ making more sense than the usual ‘without a city wall’, which as a youngster I thought - why mention there was no wall.

I remember very clearly Jonfan that at school we sang (always) 'outside'. I agree entirely - 'without' makes no sense. I sincerely believe that old hymns should NOT have any of their original lyrics or single words changed at all!

[smittims]

I think sometimes words were changed to make the hymn more 'ecumenical', i.e. acceptable to the beliefs of differrent churches, e.g .

'To save us all from Satan's power
When we were gone astray'

became

'To save poor souls from Satan's power
Which long had gone astray'.

and

'The Blessed Virgin Mary
Unto the Lord did pray' became

'His mother, Mary, kneeling
Unto the Lord did pray'.

As to whether it shuld or shouldn't be done, I make no comment.

[Sir Velo]

I remember very clearly Jonfan that at school we sang (always) 'outside'. I agree entirely - 'without' makes no sense.

Except in the archaic sense of "without" meaning outside or beyond, but of course hugely puzzling to the young mind!

[moulin]

I've only ever heard it once (on a CE from Paisley Abbey over thirty years ago) but "Round the Lord in Glory Seated" to Bethany was an absolute cracker, the kids went wild putting "Aitch's" on all the Holy's, and then we were treated to a stonking descant in the last verse. Never forgotten it (partly because I kept a recording).

I think Bethany has - finally - reappeared in the new edition of EH.

[Petrushka]

Except in the archaic sense of "without" meaning outside or beyond, but of course hugely puzzling to the young mind!

But what are teachers for if they cannot give their young charges a very simple explanation? Once you understand the meaning it is perfectly obvious and it is one you never forget once told.

Cecil Alexander was a prolific hymn writer and I consider it plain wrong to tinker with his work when all that is required is a little explanation. In any case, substitution of 'without' to 'outside' destroys the gentle poetry evident in the repetition of the 'w' sound which is there, especially in the first two verses.

[Sir Velo]

I've only ever heard it once (on a CE from Paisley Abbey over thirty years ago) but "Round the Lord in Glory Seated" to Bethany was an absolute cracker, the kids went wild putting "Aitch's" (sic) on all the Holy's (sic), .

Today of course that would be "Haitches"(sic)!

[oddoneout]

I think sometimes words were changed to make the hymn more 'ecumenical', i.e. acceptable to the beliefs of differrent churches, e.g .

'To save us all from Satan's power
When we were gone astray'

became

'To save poor souls from Satan's power
Which long had gone astray'.

and

'The Blessed Virgin Mary
Unto the Lord did pray' became

'His mother, Mary, kneeling
Unto the Lord did pray'.

As to whether it shuld or shouldn't be done, I make no comment.

My first, rather pedantic reaction was that the amended version doesn't work as it suggests that it is Satan's power which has gone astray(in which case no need for salvation?) rather than the souls. A bit of searching revealed that the version we are familiar with is in fact an updating(1961) of the older, rather clumsy-seeming version,
(1775 version) God rest you....
To save poor souls from Satan's power,
Which long time had gone astray.
And it is tidings of comfort and joy.

Of the reworkings of older versions of hymns that I have seen recently quite a few seem to be making things Jesus-centred, rather than simply clarifying language that might be unclear to modern congregations. That presumably makes them more 'suitable' for the active happy-clappy congregation which(seems to me) is all about the personal relationship with Jesus rather than a more remote God. The new version of 'Hills of the North' which I posted earlier shows this, to the detriment of the original sentiments in my view. The commentary underneath alludes diplomatically to the same point with a couple of examples.

[jonfan]

Cecil Alexander was a prolific hymn writer and I consider it plain wrong to tinker with his work when all that is required is a little explanation. In any case, substitution of 'without' to 'outside' destroys the gentle poetry evident in the repetition of the 'w' sound which is there, especially in the first two verses.

Sorry to put my teacher’s hat on P but Mrs Cecil Frances Alexander originally wrote ‘outside’ according to the Revised EH.

Some texts and words get badly married together despite the good quality of both. NewEH put Tallis’ Third Mode Melody to
‘How shall I sing that majesty’, the text enhanced now with Ken Naylor’s superb Coe Fen. The amazing text of ‘There’s a wideness’ now given a tune worthy of it by Maurice Bevan,
’O thou who camest’ in Anglican churches is sung to the expressive Hereford whereas in Nonconformist churches the fire in the words are brought out by Samuel Stanley’s rousing tune Wilton. Both effective in their own way.
Worship Songs usually have the same person writing both text and music and can be very effective indeed. David Evan’s ‘Be still, for the presence of the Lord’ is now in the Revised EH. Two hymns by Stuart Townend are worth comparison with any; ‘In Christ alone’ and ‘See, what a morning’, the latter THE best Easter hymn.(IMHO of course.)

[PeterboroughDiapason]

Sorry to put my teacher’s hat on P but Mrs Cecil Frances Alexander originally wrote ‘outside’ according to the Revised EH.

Two hymns by Stuart Townend are worth comparison with any; ‘In Christ alone’ and ‘See, what a morning’, the latter THE best Easter hymn.(IMHO of course.)

No, Mrs Alexander wrote "without", now often changed to "outside". Revised English Hymnal have managed to get it the wrong way round!

Not impressed by either of the Townend hymns, I must say. Both of them have the usual fairly aimless, meandering music at low pitch (bottom A in bar one of "See what a morning") with a sudden rise in pitch for the second half giving the illusion of excitement.

Only my opinion, of course, but would anyone really prefer to start the Easter Day service with "See, what a morning" rather than "Jesus Christ is risen today"? And what about "Thine be the glory"?

[jonfan]

No, Mrs Alexander wrote "without", now often changed to "outside". Revised English Hymnal have managed to get it the wrong way round!

Not impressed by either of the Townend hymns, I must say. Both of them have the usual fairly aimless, meandering music at low pitch (bottom A in bar one of "See what a morning") with a sudden rise in pitch for the second half giving the illusion of excitement.

Only my opinion, of course, but would anyone really prefer to start the Easter Day service with "See, what a morning" rather than "Jesus Christ is risen today"? And what about "Thine be the glory"?

Shocking REH got it wrong. What would RVW have said? The book also has three hymns from Stainer’s Crucifixion, and what RVW would have said about that could certainly not be repeated!!
Personal opinions of course but all the three hymns you mention will be in our Easter Day service, we start with Walford Davies’ ‘O sons and daughters of the King’ for choir. ‘See, what a morning’ effectiveness depends on the driving rhythm of the accompaniment and I find the tune rises in the right places. Fine words, a favourite with the elderly members of the congregation. All tastes catered for.