The survival of English cathedral choirs

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  • Pulcinella
    Host
    • Feb 2014
    • 11056

    The survival of English cathedral choirs

    An article by Richard Morrison in today's Times.

    They are one of the glories of British musical life, but financial meltdowns, demands for diversity and secularisation may mean the end for the choirs that thrill believers and non-believers alike
  • smittims
    Full Member
    • Aug 2022
    • 4322

    #2
    It may be an unwelcome truth, but., like another tradition threatened with extinction, the great British shopping street, the church choir in their surplices is a more recent phenomenon than many people may think. We may have to get used to the disappearance of many such well-loved institutions: record shops, public libraries , etc. It's a changing world.

    Comment

    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6921

      #3
      Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
      A very good article and not as depressing as the headline suggests. I think recruiting Cathedral choir singers from state schools rather than Cathedral linked private schools is a good thing as indeed is getting musicians who’ve grown up as “privately educated middle - class boys” to teach singing in state schools on the other hand I don’t like the way private Cathedral schools are in some way being targeted as bastions of privilege. It’s more complicated than that.
      I also think increasing diversity in the Cathedral world is a good idea as indeed it is in wider classical music which must be , with the exception of pianists string players and singers from South East Asia a pretty undiverse industry.
      We live in one of the most socially divided nations in Western Europe and the C of E is quite right to do whatever it can to break down those barriers. If that means more child singers from state schools that has to be a good idea . If this forum was the Daily Telegraph I’d now expect a torrent of disagreement but I suspect people in this forum take a wider view.

      On another note the restoration of Notre Dame attracted hundreds of millions of euros in business donations whereas Canterbury needs a mere £6 million to restore the West Front and is having to scrape it together . Not many really believe in our Christian culture any more despite articles like this bemoaning its decline. I’m not a Christian but I realise that it’s absolutely central to English , Irish , Welsh and Scottish history and has shaped so much of what we are.

      Comment

      • teamsaint
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 25224

        #4
        Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post

        A very good article and not as depressing as the headline suggests. I think recruiting Cathedral choir singers from state schools rather than Cathedral linked private schools is a good thing as indeed is getting musicians who’ve grown up as “privately educated middle - class boys” to teach singing in state schools on the other hand I don’t like the way private Cathedral schools are in some way being targeted as bastions of privilege. It’s more complicated than that.
        I also think increasing diversity in the Cathedral world is a good idea as indeed it is in wider classical music which must be , with the exception of pianists string players and singers from South East Asia a pretty undiverse industry.
        We live in one of the most socially divided nations in Western Europe and the C of E is quite right to do whatever it can to break down those barriers. If that means more child singers from state schools that has to be a good idea . If this forum was the Daily Telegraph I’d now expect a torrent of disagreement but I suspect people in this forum take a wider view.

        On another note the restoration of Notre Dame attracted hundreds of millions of euros in business donations whereas Canterbury needs a mere £6 million to restore the West Front and is having to scrape it together . Not many really believe in our Christian culture any more despite articles like this bemoaning its decline. I’m not a Christian but I realise that it’s absolutely central to English , Irish , Welsh and Scottish history and has shaped so much of what we are.
        I'd be interested to know what evidence there is for this. It must be especially difficult to quantify, given the vast number of variables, and opinions on what might constitute social division ? Division can presumably be measured by stats, ( worth looking at but open to manipulation) or by attitude surveys which can be somewhat subjective and defined by the question asked.
        Not suggesting we aren't divided, but it is a big and important subject area, that can be looked at in a number of ways.

        There are some statistical sources such as surveys of Gini coefficients on income and wealth distribution ,and a Kings College study on social attitudes that are worth a look.








        I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

        I am not a number, I am a free man.

        Comment

        • oddoneout
          Full Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 9267

          #5
          I can't read the Times article but this programme may have covered some of the same points?
          Eleanor Oldroyd investigates the major challenges facing British cathedral choirs today.

          I heard it and found it interesting, and not as totally doom laden as some see the situation. I can't help thinking though that the CofE is it's own worst enemy in some respects. Some of the disagreements and choir disbandings of recent times are in essence just the same as ones I knew of 40 and 50 years ago, which suggests entrenched hierarchies and attitudes that haven't moved with the times as other organisations have had to, and which lack the ability to cope with the changes now coming thick and fast.
          As regards Notre Dame, is it possible that one reason for the success of its restoration is the fact it's in the capital city, where its secular value(landmark, tourist/cultural) is as important(perhaps even more so?) as its sacred one?

          Comment

          • Keraulophone
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 1967

            #6
            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
            I can't read the Times article but this programme may have covered some of the same points?
            Eleanor Oldroyd investigates the major challenges facing British cathedral choirs today.

            As regards Notre Dame, is it possible that one reason for the success of its restoration is the fact it's in the capital city, where its secular value(landmark, tourist/cultural) is as important(perhaps even more so?) as its sacred one?
            Unlike the funding of church fabric in the UK, it is the state in France that has responsibility for the upkeep and repair of France's churches and cathedrals. The amount being spent is invariably displayed prominently on boards outside the west end. However, they are running out of money as nearly a quater of their 50.000 listed or classified historical monuments are in poor repair or at risk: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/ar...726757_19.html 'The French government has launched campaigns to fund restoration efforts, including the Loto du patrimoine. The Interior Ministry spent 57 million euros on religious heritage in 2022. The government also paid for the entire €32 million repair of Nantes Cathedral after a fire.' (web)

            By the by, IMO the choir of Notre Dame de Paris (selected from 'La Maîtrise' - 150 children and students aged 5 to 28 who sing at 1200 services a year) did itself no favours during the first Mass since the reopening by comparison with, for example, its equivalent at Westminster Cathedral.

            (I haven't read Richard Morrison's article yet, but will do so soon...)
            Last edited by Keraulophone; 17-12-24, 18:50.

            Comment

            • Keraulophone
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 1967

              #7
              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post

              I'd be interested to know what evidence there is for this.

              There are some statistical sources such as...
              This Sky survey is presented more simply than some others, though it may be less scientific (poll sample size?): https://news.sky.com/state-of-the-nation

              'Three quarters (75%) of Britons surveyed believe the UK is [socially] divided' - brexit, immigration, trust in institutions, politics, racism, etc.

              Comment

              • teamsaint
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 25224

                #8
                Originally posted by Keraulophone View Post

                This Sky survey is presented more simply than some others, though it may be less scientific (poll sample size?): https://news.sky.com/state-of-the-nation

                'Three quarters (75%) of Britons surveyed believe the UK is [socially] divided' - brexit, immigration, trust in institutions, politics, racism, etc.
                Yep, I saw quite a lot of that sort of stuff, which falls into one of the categories I mentioned…..subjective, and depending on how questions are put, which is a flaw in all sorts of data in a number of areas. Context ( how similar groups of people in other countries might respond when asked a similar set of questions), matters.
                Something more convincing is needed. And in terms of economics, it can be done. Inherited wealth is the single most important factor in life chances. But in terms of wealth and income distribution ,on Gini indexes, the UK is broadly in the middle of the bigger European countries, with those in the south being a little more unequal, and those in the north a little more equal, generally. We also come out in the Kings survey as a relatively united country on liberal social values.

                In the end, those with power like us feeling divided, and the important thing is to work against division.


                Edit : apologies, this is rather dragging the thread away from the main topic. It is an important issue though.
                Last edited by teamsaint; 17-12-24, 22:03.
                I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                I am not a number, I am a free man.

                Comment

                • Pulcinella
                  Host
                  • Feb 2014
                  • 11056

                  #9
                  A letter from Leeds in today's Times (link to article removed as it is non-shareable):

                  Cathedral choirs

                  Sir, On financial sustainability and state school recruitment, we in Leeds are also leading the national schools singing programme (NSSP), which is successfully recruiting many thousands of state-school children into 33 cathedral choirs across the UK. Richard Morrison [...] mentions that this work “requires more than a change of heart. Often it requires a change of staff as well, and that can be painful”. Spot on. The NSSP has already created 70 new roles in cathedral music departments, so it is possible to change hearts without breaking skulls.
                  Benjamin Saunders
                  Director of music, Leeds Cathedral

                  Comment

                  • LMcD
                    Full Member
                    • Sep 2017
                    • 8621

                    #10
                    [QUOTE=teamsaint;n1325950]


                    In the end, those with power like us feeling divided, and the important thing is to work against division.

                    'Divide and rule', eh?

                    Comment

                    • jonfan
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 1444

                      #11
                      Originally posted by teamsaint View Post

                      I'd be interested to know what evidence there is for this. It must be especially difficult to quantify, given the vast number of variables, and opinions on what might constitute social division ? Division can presumably be measured by stats, ( worth looking at but open to manipulation) or by attitude surveys which can be somewhat subjective and defined by the question asked.
                      Yes evidence to the contrary is all around if you look. Leeds Cathedral is a model example of what can be done with ethnic and social diversity in a cathedral choir. I’m glad the DOM has responded,

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 37809

                        #12
                        Originally posted by smittims View Post
                        It may be an unwelcome truth, but., like another tradition threatened with extinction, the great British shopping street, the church choir in their surplices is a more recent phenomenon than many people may think. We may have to get used to the disappearance of many such well-loved institutions: record shops, public libraries , etc. It's a changing world.
                        Were the impossible to happen, i.e. church and cathedral music to be separated out from its religio-moral associations and treated inseparably from the architectural/acoustic conditions proper to its origins, in perpetuity as sound, its devotional aspects could be approached non-religiously and protected for its own sake. This idea would be treated as sacrilege by those who endow the tradition from Tallis to Howells (broadly) as invested with supernatural power, rather than an uplifting conjunction of music and place sui generis. The "English choral tradition" limitingly so-called is one of Britain's genuinely unique contributions to culture, along with Shakespeare, and the 18th century Landscape School originating with Capability Brown. Apart from our lingo we ain't got a lot else to boast about!

                        Comment

                        • vinteuil
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 12927

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                          The "English choral tradition" limitingly so-called is one of Britain's genuinely unique contributions to culture, along with Shakespeare, and the 18th century Landscape School originating with Capability Brown. Apart from our lingo we ain't got a lot else to boast about!
                          ... o I don't know - Beau Brummell as dandy effectively inventing the suit : the Georgian terrace : the English water-colour : the English Essay (as distinct from Montaigne) : Johnson and his Dixonary, and its ultimate successor the OED : railways : Lyell and geology : Darwin and evolution : Newtonian science : romantic poetry - we ain't done too bad


                          (... and for them as likes sport, well I spose there's futbol, rugger, cricket &c )

                          .
                          Last edited by vinteuil; 19-12-24, 18:29.

                          Comment

                          • Serial_Apologist
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 37809

                            #14
                            Originally posted by vinteuil View Post

                            ... o I don't know - Beau Brummell as dandy effectively inventing the suit : the Georgian terrace : the English water-colour : the English Essay (as distinct from Montaigne) : Johnson and his Dixonary, and its ultimate successor the OED : railways : Lyell and geology : Darwin and evolution : Newtonian science : romantic poetry - we ain't done too bad

                            .
                            OK I concede Beau Brummell (!) the English water colour , railways , Lyell , Darwin and Newton . Britain has always been advantaged by dint of where continental drift landed us. Not sure about the English Essay (admittedly your area much more than mine). The Georgian terrace (+ sash windows) - that was a mid 17th century import from Holland; Romantic poetry was arguably more a German invention epoch-wise, though many will bet on Shakespeare as its originator. Dictionaries I would equate with menus: not without significance of course but has anybody seen fit to investigate where they originated?

                            Comment

                            • smittims
                              Full Member
                              • Aug 2022
                              • 4322

                              #15
                              And there's always Doctor Who? and the Boat Race (if they're not mostly Americans thes edays).

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