CE Winchester Cathedral 28th Feb 2024 [L]

[mw963]

Very interesting. I’ll have to listen again . It sounded like a very weird type of distortion . I think sharing feeds is pretty common at the Wigmore Hall in that the Wigmore video stream Audio Balance appears indistinguishable from the BBC one. Apart from anything else it cuts down on the number of mikes.

listened again . I was wrong : it’s classic peak distortion on World Without end at about 24.57 in . It’s a ringing high note from the trebles plus organ FF - in a reverberant acoustic that acts like a vast unpredictable medieval amplifier and then not 30 secs before there was a pp section. Just about the worst combination imaginable. How do you squash 65dbs into 40 for broadcast .Might just have sounded fine in the van but the engines (Limiters / transmission system) can’t take it Captain. Wonder if the control room asked them to take it down a bit or just did it themselves..
Said it before but choirs are a nightmare…

Perhaps ten years ago the balancer (and the chain onwards) would have left a bit more headroom for just this sort of eventuality. Optimod/whatever on FM would have taken care of the lower level by whacking it up (and whatever I think of Optimods and the like they are absolutely bomb proof on unexpected peaks, technically rather than musically speaking of course), and those of us listening on satellite etc aren't going to be bothered by wide dynamic range because the digital noise floor is so low that even when we turn up the volume to realistic levels it's still not a problem.

I'd continue to argue that the constant "we must make it audible even if it's at the expense of musicality" ends up in just this sort of catastrophe. Allowing a little headroom, lining up the broadcast chain properly, and not worrying so much about whether someone in a car is going to hear every note would be the "old" and "better" way of doing it.

But then I'm a dinosaur and believe in getting as close to the original sound as possible, and having seen some of the legendary BBC balancers of the 1980s do just that I know it's possible.

[cat]

The BBC have been broadcasting live choral evensong services for 97 years. I don't think it should come as a surprise to them when choir and organ sound louder than they did earlier in a service. Perhaps their institutional memory is deficient.

I watched online, as I was already subscribed to their YouTube channel. Thanks Lizzie for explaining why the top line consisted of the boys plus half the girls, I had thought it unusual.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Perhaps ten years ago the balancer (and the chain onwards) would have left a bit more headroom for just this sort of eventuality. Optimod/whatever on FM would have taken care of the lower level by whacking it up (and whatever I think of Optimods and the like they are absolutely bomb proof on unexpected peaks, technically rather than musically speaking of course), and those of us listening on satellite etc aren't going to be bothered by wide dynamic range because the digital noise floor is so low that even when we turn up the volume to realistic levels it's still not a problem.

I'd continue to argue that the constant "we must make it audible even if it's at the expense of musicality" ends up in just this sort of catastrophe. Allowing a little headroom, lining up the broadcast chain properly, and not worrying so much about whether someone in a car is going to hear every note would be the "old" and "better" way of doing it.

But then I'm a dinosaur and believe in getting as close to the original sound as possible, and having seen some of the legendary BBC balancers of the 1980s do just that I know it's possible.

Well I must have worked with one or two of those legends . Did a Cathedral organ recital once and the fader never once left the balancers fingers - they were constantly anticipating what was going to happen dynamically. Even so there is always an unpredictable element if say the choir mark a bit during rehearsals.
Mind you if you think that’s tricky try doing racks (the Vision brightness and contrast controlled by a Vision engineer in the outside broadcast van ) on a sunny day in a live football match where one half of the pitch is in shade. That is absolutely impossible even now.

[mw963]

You are of course right, there are a lot of adverse circumstances working against live broadcasts whether TV or Radio.

I do just wonder if some bit of the kit did actually go faulty in some way, I continue to be puzzled that the distortion - once set off - didn't seem to disappear immediately the levels were reduced.

I daresay we'll never know......

[Lizzie]

Lovely stuff, kernel



.

PS Lizzie, is the live channel you mention on YouTube?

The live channel is accessed on YouTube platform, via the Winchester Cathedral website, where you will find the Cathedral Channel. The bulk of the Cathedral services are now livestreamed. More explanation on the website. It uses some very high quality camera and sound equipment, which our Virger Team operates with great expertise and enthusiasm. A huge blessing which came about as a result of Covid. I watch services almost daily, and when I'm off travelling, post-retirement. Give us a try sometimes. It's also available on the Facebook platform, which has a live webchat facility too.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The BBC have been broadcasting live choral evensong services for 97 years. I don't think it should come as a surprise to them when choir and organ sound louder than they did earlier in a service. Perhaps their institutional memory is deficient.

I watched online, as I was already subscribed to their YouTube channel. Thanks Lizzie for explaining why the top line consisted of the boys plus half the girls, I had thought it unusual.

As mw963 says it could be any of a dozen problems .There are just so many bits of electronics to malfunction from mics right through to transmitter amps . . All I can say is on fifty years of listening to R3 music balancing standards are as high if not higher than they’ve ever been.Some of the Proms last year were extraordinarily well done.
I hear peak distortion on speech radio all the time - even though peak levels in speech should be much more consistent than music .People get excited - even just having a coffee can raise the levels a few dbs. You can’t just dip the fader because you’re guessing the choir are going to sing louder at that point than rehearsal - if they don’t then you’ve unartistically introduced a sudden diminuendo. The conductor won’t thank you for that.
In the area I’ve worked for the last 35 years -TV doc film making- location sound quality has definitely declined - most mic waggling is done either by the producer/ director or by the camera op or worst of all by self shooting producer - literally doing three jobs at once. Sound recordists Are a vanishing breed.

[Nick Armstrong]

The live channel is accessed on YouTube platform, via the Winchester Cathedral website, where you will find the Cathedral Channel. The bulk of the Cathedral services are now livestreamed. More explanation on the website. It uses some very high quality camera and sound equipment, which our Virger Team operates with great expertise and enthusiasm. A huge blessing which came about as a result of Covid. I watch services almost daily, and when I'm off travelling, post-retirement. Give us a try sometimes. It's also available on the Facebook platform, which has a live webchat facility too.

Ah! My PM just crossed with your post!

I couldn’t find yesterday’s CE on YouTube but will look again….

[Lizzie]

Ah! My PM just crossed with your post!

I couldn’t find yesterday’s CE on YouTube but will look again….

Sorry, Nick. I've just looked to re-listen, and it appears to have been removed. I'd hoped that it would have been classed as a 'special' service and kept up for a week. As things stand, the best that the Cathedral could negotiate, was that Sunday services would be kept available for one week, and some 'specials'. Hence services involving Layclerks on a daily basis, are not available on catch-up.
Apologies for unintentionally mis-advising you...
Best. Lizzie

[oddoneout]

The BBC have been broadcasting live choral evensong services for 97 years. I don't think it should come as a surprise to them when choir and organ sound louder than they did earlier in a service. Perhaps their institutional memory is deficient.

I watched online, as I was already subscribed to their YouTube channel. Thanks Lizzie for explaining why the top line consisted of the boys plus half the girls, I had thought it unusual.

Will we get to celebrate the centenary do you suppose?

[cat]

Will we get to celebrate the centenary do you suppose?

Given what was announced for the BBC Singers shortly before they celebrated their 100th anniversary, we can but hope.

[jonfan]

A wonderful CE meticulously prepared and the excitement of all taking part was palpable. A lot of fun for singers and organist in the psalms. Heard it on Sunday’s broadcast and didn’t detect sound issues referred to above.

[Lizzie]

A wonderful CE meticulously prepared and the excitement of all taking part was palpable. A lot of fun for singers and organist in the psalms. Heard it on Sunday’s broadcast and didn’t detect sound issues referred to above.

So, so proud of them ALL, Clergy included. The Boys, Senior Girls and Layclerks sang with real understanding and feeling, as happens day in day out, with Andy's fabulous training and direction. Josh played magnificently in his first live broadcast.
More seemed to have been concerned about the technology and production than really judging the beauty of the service itself, and the commitment shown by everyone there giving their absolute utmost to the glory of God! IMHO!

[Ein Heldenleben]

A wonderful CE meticulously prepared and the excitement of all taking part was palpable. A lot of fun for singers and organist in the psalms. Heard it on Sunday’s broadcast and didn’t detect sound issues referred to above.

I did but as Lizzie says it didn’t detract from the muslcal excellence of the occasion . In broadcasting as in life you have to take the rough with the smooth.

[mw963]

A wonderful CE meticulously prepared and the excitement of all taking part was palpable. A lot of fun for singers and organist in the psalms. Heard it on Sunday’s broadcast and didn’t detect sound issues referred to above.

I had meant to have a listen again but only remembered in time to come in on the Nunc. However, the distortion was still there, it was (from memory of the original) slightly less bad than the one in the Mag, but it still sounded very obvious on the repeat. I'm slightly suprised you didn't spot it jonfan, but then EinH and I do both listen VERY critically; EinH has a very great depth of technical expertise, and is also far more up to date than I am, but I suspect we both are on alert for the same faults, having (again I suspect) had fairly similar training processes.

The fact that nothing had been done about the problem suggests that it was on the output of the mixing desk rather than further down the broadcast chain; had there been an on site recording that was clean one would assume it would have been used for the repeat, as has sometimes happened in the past.

[mw963]

So, so proud of them ALL, Clergy included. The Boys, Senior Girls and Layclerks sang with real understanding and feeling, as happens day in day out, with Andy's fabulous training and direction. Josh played magnificently in his first live broadcast.
More seemed to have been concerned about the technology and production than really judging the beauty of the service itself, and the commitment shown by everyone there giving their absolute utmost to the glory of God! IMHO!

I think you're being a bit unfair Lizzie. In both my early posts I said nice things about the broadcast, in particular the Bairstow and the Vierne. Just because some of us are interested (obsessed) by the technical side - which is an important factor in the overall perception of Choral Evensong broadcasts - doesn't mean we're unaware of the work and dedication and professionalism that goes into a service like this, which as you rightly say should glorify God.

Winchester's offering was particularly welcome to me. Cathedral broadcasts are few and far between compared to say twenty years ago, and I find many of the "church" relays disappointing, often because the acoustic is so underwhelming. I also find many of the College broadcasts disappointing because although they are musically perfect they lack that edge of the seat feel that seems (at least to me) to be something that happens more in cathedrals. The "concert problem" perhaps, as has been discussed elsewhere on here recently........