Choral Vespers from the Church of Our Lady of Victories, Kensington, London

[DracoM]

Choral Vespers from the Church of Our Lady of Victories, Kensington, London, with the Schola Cantorum of Cardinal Vaughan Memorial School.

Prelude: Chorale Prelude ‚Nun komm der Heiden Heiland‘ BWV 659 (Bach)
Introit: O Radiant Dawn (James MacMillan)
Hymn: Conditor alme siderum (Plainsong)
Psalm 26 (Plainsong)
Canticle: Colossians 1 vv. 12-20
Magnificat Secundi Toni (Valls)
Motet: Laetentur coeli (Byrd)
Antiphon: Alma redemptoris mater a8 (Victoria)
Voluntary: Prelude and Fugue in C minor BWV 546 (Bach)

Scott Price (Director of Music)
Iestyn Evans (Organ)

Recorded 30 November.

[DracoM]

Sorry for lateness of posting - been a bit off colour.

[mw963]

I don't know whether it was just me, but I felt that the sound balance didn't do this broadcast any favours. It all sounded rather muddled, and I'd put money (at least a few pence) on there having been some (on site?) dynamics compression across the whole thing. I started watching the levels on BBC meters, and where I'd have expected a few musical peaks to push the meters up, they stubbornly stuck to a certain limit. The treble entries often seemed to push back on the overall sound of the choir. Further perhaps confirmed by the fact that the Con announcements peaked 6 dB higher than anything on the broadcast.

I found the balance quite tiring to listen to..... But as I say, maybe it was just me.

Pity, because this sort of choral music isn't my preferred, but I was prepared to give it a sympathetic listen, as a nice Advent service.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't know whether it was just me, but I felt that the sound balance didn't do this broadcast any favours. It all sounded rather muddled, and I'd put money (at least a few pence) on there having been some (on site?) dynamics compression across the whole thing. I started watching the levels on BBC meters, and where I'd have expected a few musical peaks to push the meters up, they stubbornly stuck to a certain limit. The treble entries often seemed to push back on the overall sound of the choir. Further perhaps confirmed by the fact that the Con announcements peaked 6 dB higher than anything on the broadcast.

I found the balance quite tiring to listen to..... But as I say, maybe it was just me.

Pity, because this sort of choral music isn't my preferred, but I was prepared to give it a sympathetic listen, as a nice Advent service.

Yes well I managed to doze off during this so I must listen back. Though that might prove fruitless as the compression might have been introduced further up the chain . I have been noticing more compression recently on CE. Maybe they have a compressor as safety net in the OB van. But if it’s on everything that’s a different matter
From the distant past I remember the phenomenon of boy sopranos (off disc ) not sounding very loud but for some reason bending the PPM the higher they sing.I think PPM’s are A weighted to mimic human hearing aren’t they ? Unlike V/U meters. It’s all hazy memories as my recording these days is mainly filming our choir on an iPhone - amazing how good the result is.

[mw963]

Yes well I managed to doze off during this so I must listen back. Though that might prove fruitless as the compression might have been introduced further up the chain . I have been noticing more compression recently on CE. Maybe they have a compressor as safety net in the OB van. But if it’s on everything that’s a different matter
From the distant past I remember the phenomenon of boy sopranos (off disc ) not sounding very loud but for some reason bending the PPM the higher they sing.I think PPM’s are A weighted to mimic human hearing aren’t they ? Unlike V/U meters. It’s all hazy memories as my recording these days is mainly filming our choir on an iPhone - amazing how good the result is.

It certainly wasn't as bad as that one a few weeks ago when there would appear to have been a "bad" setting in R3 Con, and these things are to a certain extent subjective; I can think of a few times over the years when I've been listening to something live and suddenly thinking "that was a bum edit", and then realising that of course it couldn't be! But dozing off during this broadcast - at least as I heard it - would have been quite an achievement unless the volume was very low!

[Ein Heldenleben]

It certainly wasn't as bad as that one a few weeks ago when there would appear to have been a "bad" setting in R3 Con, and these things are to a certain extent subjective; I can think of a few times over the years when I've been listening to something live and suddenly thinking "that was a bum edit", and then realising that of course it couldn't be! But dozing off during this broadcast - at least as I heard it - would have been quite an achievement unless the volume was very low!

Unfortunately a few years tape editing has left me unable to listen to most speech radio as I hear edits everywhere. Although with digital editing you don’t get dropouts and shouldnt ‘t get double breaths what you can’t mask are the false inflections when different parts of an interview are moulded together. I’m so averse to internal voice edits that when I did TV interviews I tried to always get clean 30 second speech clips with no edits. That’s pretty much impossible in an extended radio interview.
Digital editing in music is now so flawless that when some one on this forum told me there were 150 edits in the 1st movement alone of Rattle’s Resurrection Symphony recording I just couldn’t get my head round it. I couldn’t hear one.
In terms of choral recording a studio manager once told me that live choir plus organ plus audience in a church or Cathedral is one of the most challenging broadcasts around. There are quite a few uncontrollables. The last run of CE has had alarms, signal loss , over compression - proves his point really. There’s also the unpredictability of amateur singers who might be tempted to mark in rehearsal and then give it full welly in perf as it were. No reason why the audience should care but as with a lot of live broadcasting it’s a miracle it goes on air sometimes.

[mw963]

.I think PPM’s are A weighted to mimic human hearing aren’t they ? Unlike V/U meters. It’s all hazy memories as my recording these days is mainly filming our choir on an iPhone - amazing how good the result is.

I haven't checked chapter and verse, but the main point of a PPM is to prevent overloading in the broadcast chain, and subsequent over-modulation (or over-deviation if it's FM) at the transmitter. As any audio frequency can produce over-modulation I would assume PPMs would need to have a completely flat response. I suspect it's other "lesser" meters that are tweeked to give an idea of subjective loudness. But I'm happy to be proved wrong as that's my first guess without actually looking it up.

But while we witter on about technicalities, did no one else listen to Kensington?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I haven't checked chapter and verse, but the main point of a PPM is to prevent overloading in the broadcast chain, and subsequent over-modulation (or over-deviation if it's FM) at the transmitter. As any audio frequency can produce over-modulation I would assume PPMs would need to have a completely flat response. I suspect it's other "lesser" meters that are tweeked to give an idea of subjective loudness. But I'm happy to be proved wrong as that's my first guess without actually looking it up.

But while we witter on about technicalities, did no one else listen to Kensington?

Just read a long wiki article on a weighting - I might have confused sound level meters which are usually A weighted with PPM ‘s . I guess the transmission system is more interested in excess signal levels in electrical terms than audio as you can’t deafen a transistor.

[LJB]

I’ve just come here to see what you all made of this broadcast which I caught driving very fast so can’t comment on balance etc.

I’m astounded that nobody has commented on the treble duet. Certainly the finest duet I’ve ever heard from boys, but seemingly unnoticed by the experts. Did I imagine it?

[Simon Biazeck]

Very muddy sound - quite a difficult listen. A pity, given the vibrancy from a couple of trebles at least (Malakai Bayoh in the mix?) and a very disciplined and well-drilled choir. I enjoyed the French Symphonic style Skrabl organ. The organ sound seemed much clearer. It is not a big church at all and very reverberant, so I wonder if the choir was too big. They certainly didn't seem to be pushing though.

[DracoM]

Excellent summary, Simon............!!

[Simon Biazeck]

Excellent summary, Simon............!!

Thank you!

[DracoM]

Rpt today.

[Positif]

All I could think about whilst listening to this broadcast was how extraordinary it was that the entire choir was under the age of 18. What an amazing place this school must be. Congratulations to all.

[oddoneout]

All I could think about whilst listening to this broadcast was how extraordinary it was that the entire choir was under the age of 18. What an amazing place school this must be. Congratulations to all.

I looked up music at the school after the broadcast - look at the choral music link, it's pretty impressive. There's a video of the service it seems.It's the second time they've done CE, "the only state school in the UK to have been asked twice"

https://www.cvms.co.uk/Curriculum/Music/