CE St Edmundsbury Cathedral 1st April 2015

[Magnificat]

Magnificat - as you're clearly the fount of all knowledge and feel qualified to criticise cathedral DoMs publicly, why not contact the Cathedral Organists' Association here and ask to give a talk at next month's Conference on how they should be doing their job. Your advice would be appreciated, I am sure...

Wolsey,

I've simply made a few suggestions about recruitment of boys which seems to be stagnating rather badly in many cathedrals.

As someone who is passionate about the survival of the great Anglican choral tradition I am entitled to do that surely? DoMs can read this board and take up any of my ideas if they want to. If they don't well that's entirely up to them.

I think they could do much more than they seem to be doing but know that, human nature being what it is, they will, of course, do as little as they can get away with. Ultimately it is up to their line management, the D&Cs, if they can be bothered, to decide if their DoM is doing his/her job properly in this respect not me.

VCC

[light_calibre_baritone]

Wolsey

As I have said Ofsted are coming on very strongly for much more emphasis on the arts and music in children's education and lives rather than just the three Rs...

VCC.

As you well know, most choir schools are independent - Ofsted doesn't inspect every independent school in the country. So the above doesn't make that much sense.

The rest of your 'manifesto' is just a bit of a rant.

Happy Easter! By the way, nice spirited singing on R4 from Chester Cathedral as I type...

[ardcarp]

As I have said Ofsted are coming on very strongly for much more emphasis on the arts and music in children's education and lives rather than just the three Rs.

Really? Does dishing out ukeleles to a class for one term...taught by the teacher one chord ahead of (or maybe behind) the kids...tick all the boxes? One hears that Ofsted's main achievement is nervous breakdowns among the teaching profession

[Magnificat]

As you well know, most choir schools are independent - Ofsted doesn't inspect every independent school in the country. So the above doesn't make that much sense.

The rest of your 'manifesto' is just a bit of a rant.

Happy Easter! By the way, nice spirited singing on R4 from Chester Cathedral as I type...

lcb.

State school kids are potential choristers, so if music is to be a big thing in Ofsted's view from now on it seems to me that heads of state school music departments should be encouraged to get their children singing in cathedral choirs as well as school choirs.

At present it is impossible for them to sing in cathedrals with choir schools unless they attend the school which is unfortunate in my view. Choir schools should be opened up to any boy who has the ability required and become a real part of the local community. Choir School cathedrals are cutting themselves off from a potentially massive source of recruits.

The apparent inability of choir school cathedral authorities to be prepared to consider any new way of operating to overcome recruitment difficulties and the inertia of DoMs in this regard is a scandal really.

ardcarp

From what I have read this new thinking by of Ofsted is a fundamental broadening of the state school curriculum. Cathedral Doms should try to tap into this but it will take a lot of effort and hard work. Have they got it in them? I hope so.

VCC.

[Quilisma]

On Easter Day, of all days, it's rather strange that we are STILL flogging this tired old horse about the rights and wrongs (and, dare I say, the realities and delusions) of chorister recruitment outreach initiatives and whether or not cathedral music departments know what they are doing and/or can be bothered. The esteemed personage of the feline canticle should comfort himself with the knowledge that contact details for all sorts of DoMs and AssOrgs are dutifully and transparently published online. Maybe it's time to put up or shut up. How about writing to anybody who is found to be at fault, outlining concerns in detail, and showing working in full? I know and/or have worked with several DoMs and AssOrgs who would, I'm sure, be only too delighted to peruse such comments, and to grant them all the attention they might warrant... Meanwhile, Christ is risen, in case y'all hadn't noticed!

[Magnificat]

On Easter Day, of all days, it's rather strange that we are STILL flogging this tired old horse about the rights and wrongs (and, dare I say, the realities and delusions) of chorister recruitment outreach initiatives and whether or not cathedral music departments know what they are doing and/or can be bothered. The esteemed personage of the feline canticle should comfort himself with the knowledge that contact details for all sorts of DoMs and AssOrgs are dutifully and transparently published online. Maybe it's time to put up or shut up. How about writing to anybody who is found to be at fault, outlining concerns in detail, and showing working in full? I know and/or have worked with several DoMs and AssOrgs who would, I'm sure, be only too delighted to peruse such comments, and to grant them all the attention they might warrant... Meanwhile, Christ is risen, in case y'all hadn't noticed!

Q,

If DoMs who moan, as they usually do, that " recruitment is a worry" or "recruitment is a concern" were to outline in public at the same time what their detailed plans are to overcome the problems it might indeed be possible to send them other and perhaps more imaginative ideas to think about.

Yes, Christ is risen indeed; but will there be any boys to sing about the good news in 20/30 years time?

VCC.

[Quilisma]

Yes, there will, and it will be thanks to the efforts (inadequate or not according to you) of people actively involved in Cathedral music, and no thanks to people continually sniping about them from the comfort of anonymity and the confidence that the world has gone to the dogs. You're usually a prolific reviewer of the content of broadcasts as well (not least when it comes to what you perceive as bad training and direction and management and nurturing of any given choir), so maybe you would like to say something instead about the content of some of the many choral broadcasts there have been over these past few days? We're bracing ourselves for particularly unflattering comments about our two broadcasts if you so wish... Meanwhile, all those DoMs and AssOrgs are waiting to hear from you about how they should go about recruitment and how they have been getting it wrong all these years. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh, it's just that continuous railing about recruitment practices on these boards really isn't helping anyone to solve the problem.

[DracoM]

On the 'Chorister for a Day' initiatives, what role do the in situ choristers have on such a day? Or is that not how DoMs structure such days?

[Caussade]

lcb.

State school kids are potential choristers, so if music is to be a big thing in Ofsted's view from now on it seems to me that heads of state school music departments should be encouraged to get their children singing in cathedral choirs as well as school choirs.

At present it is impossible for them to sing in cathedrals with choir schools unless they attend the school which is unfortunate in my view. Choir schools should be opened up to any boy who has the ability required and become a real part of the local community. Choir School cathedrals are cutting themselves off from a potentially massive source of recruits.

The apparent inability of choir school cathedral authorities to be prepared to consider any new way of operating to overcome recruitment difficulties and the inertia of DoMs in this regard is a scandal really.

ardcarp

From what I have read this new thinking by of Ofsted is a fundamental broadening of the state school curriculum. Cathedral Doms should try to tap into this but it will take a lot of effort and hard work. Have they got it in them? I hope so.

VCC.

'Apparent inability'. And in your next posting you make it clear that you don't really know what sort of activities and initiatives DoMs are already pursuing to improve recruitment. If you did, then you wouldn't need to ask. Has it ever occurred to you, in a fleeting moment of lucidity, that cathedrals are already pursuing as many avenues as they possibly can, and that the concerns they express about recruitment are based on the lack of impact on chorister numbers that their efforts are having? Your remarks, as always, contain so many misconceptions and over-simplifications that it's scarcely worth trying to reason with you. No-one - I repeat, no-one - is trying to exclude children who want to sing, so that their working lives can be rendered slightly easier thereby; but surely you can comprehend that even the smallest changes in the way choristers are recruited - involving just one more school, more example - can have such fundamental ramifications for funding, staffing, timetables and infrastructure that they can't be viably pursued. Just pointing to a cathedral where recruitment is buoyant (at the moment) and suggesting everyone should follow their system is fatuous, because so many factors vary from foundation to foundation, and what local conditions make possible in one place is made impossible by local conditions in another. Not just harder work - impossible. I could give you a detailed account of the problems one cathedral very near me faced in trying to broaden the impractical systems put in place by a previous DoM, and the obstacles they faced in trying to improve matters, but I know it would be a waste of time. I'm not a cathedral musician, by the way - but I have many professional collegues who are, and they work damn hard at all this.
DracoM - resident choristers are nealy always involved in Be a Chorister events.

[Quilisma]

I can't speak for anywhere other than Ely, but, here at least, certainly a subset of current and indeed former boy choristers are involved each time, and possibly the whole choir for some of the day. From what I understand, BACFAD events involve musical demonstrations, observations, workshops, talks, question and answer sessions, tours of the Cathedral and choristers' domain hosted at least partly by the boys and presumably house staff, and at least a warm invitation to attend Evensong. I believe responsibility for promoting these events is assumed by someone in the administration, organisations being what they are, so if the advertising is somewhat suboptimally targeted it is certainly not the fault of the music department. We do get interest in these days but it tends to be a small and happy throng.

There are of course also regular outreach visits to local schools with small groups of boys, who relish their job as ambassadors and adverts for what being a chorister is; but how these events are conducted, and whether or not there is any follow up at all, remains the prerogative of each host school to decide, and many host schools won't be interested in much apart from trumpeting the fact that they have provided their pupils with a bit of entertainment by getting some boy choristers to come and sing to them... There are also parish concerts, and the tendency is that boys in their final year will have a visit by the whole choir to their home parish church (whether it is inside the diocese or not). Choir families are heavily involved in spreading the word to anyone they might know who has a potentially interested son, and any potentially useful contacts or channels of information are exploited for spreading the word that being a chorister is great and that circumstance should never be an obstacle.

Also, in 2006, Paul Trepte (previously of St Edmundsbury, whose thread has been horribly hijacked by all this) established a children's choir for young boys and girls, which attracts youngsters who might never have considered choristerships. It's interesting to see that, in the line-up of founder members, many of them went on to become boy or girl choristers here, and indeed many of the boy choristers who are local started off in that children's choir. They sing together with the Cathedral Choir on certain fun occasions, and are often involved in Cathedral outreach projects, so it's a very good and positive introduction to that world for them.

So that, then, is the extent to which we are neglecting our responsibility to recruit future boys and can't be bothered to be creative and take the message to people that being a boy chorister is great... Make your own judgements!

[Quilisma]

Incidentally, as a sign of the extent to which we in Ely don't have a clue about recruitment, we have two new probationers starting after the Easter holiday, bringing the number of boys back up to eighteen. We'll be losing our three remaining Year 8s at (or possibly before, but I hope not) the end of the school year, of course, so that will soften the blow slightly. And I'm sure we'll have some lined up for September. At official capacity there would be twenty-two but that very rarely happens, and some places have recently proved that they can cope very well with as few as nine. Sometimes a smaller number is better. Ours do excellently when there are fourteen or fewer singing.

[DracoM]

What is fascinating in this respect is that in USA, where the age shift to High Schools is a year later than the UK trad prep / choir school > secondary school move of 13 yrs, the 13+yr olds go on singing treble for far longer than in UK. Something about wanting to remain 'top dog' maybe? Can't be because the age of puberty / the break / change is later in USA than UK,.....!! So what are the factors?

What can really kibosh singing for UK boys particularly is Y9 / Y10 schooling, where the peer pressure, growing exam / sports team pressures are so intense. They may well be capable of singing very respectable or better treble and alto, but the social pressures NOT to can be immense, and hey presto, guess what, when asked, they say they can't. Well, well.....what a surprise!

[Caussade]

Incidentally, as a sign of the extent to which we in Ely don't have a clue about recruitment, we have two new probationers starting after the Easter holiday, bringing the number of boys back up to eighteen. We'll be losing our three remaining Year 8s at (or possibly before, but I hope not) the end of the school year, of course, so that will soften the blow slightly. And I'm sure we'll have some lined up for September. At official capacity there would be twenty-two but that very rarely happens, and some places have recently proved that they can cope very well with as few as nine. Sometimes a smaller number is better. Ours do excellently when there are fourteen or fewer singing.

It's also worth pointing out that not all Headteachers are happy permitting what might be perceived by some parents, in a secular and multi-cultural society, as a proselytising visit from representatives of one (extremely) niche type of Chrisitian observance. I can see that in some circumstances it might engender considerable hostility. Huffing and puffing about who will sing Stanford in C in 20 years time pale into complete insignificance alongside this kind of thing.

[Magnificat]

' I repeat, no-one - is trying to exclude children who want to sing, so that their working lives can be rendered slightly easier thereby; but surely you can comprehend that even the smallest changes in the way choristers are recruited - involving just one more school, more example - can have such fundamental ramifications for funding, staffing, timetables and infrastructure that they can't be viably pursued.

Caussade,

I bet not one DoM with a choir school has gone anywhere near a state school ( or another independent school for that matter ) to attempt to recruit.

Why? because all the choristers will have to attend the choir school. This is most definitely excluding boys who would like to sing in the cathedral choir and are good enough to do so but simply attend another school

Cathedral authorities should not countenance this.

The difficulties you mention will have to be overcome.

Cathedral choirs must be open to any boy purely on the basis of ability and DoMs must go and find them. Just sitting back waiting for kids to apply to join and come to voice trials etc is not good enough.

If there are any DoMs without choir schools who are not getting out and about actively recruiting but just waiting for boys to answer adverts they should be shot.

Any Headteachers who are so bigoted and narrow minded as to object to boys in their schools being encouraged to sing in church choirs and to support them if they want to do so and are not willing to point out the benefits of their doing so to their parents shouldn't be in their jobs and should be reported to Ofsted.

VCC

[Magnificat]

Yes, there will, and it will be thanks to the efforts (inadequate or not according to you) of people actively involved in Cathedral music, and no thanks to people continually sniping about them from the comfort of anonymity and the confidence that the world has gone to the dogs.

Q.

What did Oscar Wilde say about anonymity - " give a man a mask and he'll tell you the truth".

VCC.