CE St Edmundsbury Cathedral 1st April 2015

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  • Quilisma
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 181

    #16
    Evidently the playing field of resources and institutional conditions is not level, and pretending that it is does nobody any favours at all, but neither, really, do reviews of ANY broadcast, particularly if one is tacitly obliged to tailor one's impressions so that they are calibrated according to a predetermined expectation one is supposed to have formulated. This goes for the putative "flagship" institutions too: it seems expected either that one will swoon over their unassailable brilliance or, on the contrary, pick everything to shreds and moan in extrapolation that nobody bar a couple of token people has had the first clue how to run or train a choir since, oh, let's say 1950 for sake of argument, and that all professionally-trained lay clerks are unmusical, insensitive and narcissistic to boot. Then someone will mention that they would have picked different repertoire, don't approve of the pointing or the gender of the singers (conspiracy!!!) or some other such fascinatingly enlightening gobbit, before we move swiftly on to organ mechanisms and wind pressures. I do often wonder what this achieves, and obviously I comment only rarely these days...

    Anyway, I haven't heard this broadcast yet, although some of the Extra Gentlemen who were singing chez nous last night for our Tenebrae service had heard it and shared their thoughts. I'll just say that I admire and respect what can be achieved with choirs where there is no choir school and where all the singers are volunteers. A couple of our current boys started off as Bury choristers, and we maintain cordial links. As some parts of our own diocese seem not to know that they are in our diocese, let alone that worthwhile music-making can and does exist in places other than Cambridge (an attitude less widespread in Cambridge itself, I hasten to add), it's good for us that there are people in Suffolk and elsewhere who would consider venturing over into the fens to us... Recruitment is a major issue even where there is a choir school, but I daresay VCC/Magnificat might opine that that's because we're all going about it in the wrong way and are generally incompetent. Ho hum.

    By the way, a few weeks ago when "we" were discussing Mendelssohn Hear my prayer and what was or was not appropriate, I almost chipped in to mention a most delectable performance on a Priory CD from these parts recorded long before my time in 2005. On the CD each piece is preceded by a plainsong office hymn, because we're rather obsessed with those here. Hear my prayer is trundling along nicely (and yes, it was a good treble soloist), so far, so normal, and then, just as it is about to launch into "O for the wings of a dove"... "Now is the healing time decreed", to the Mode III melody Ecce tempus, in that bracing and slightly edgy tone that works so well in this building... And then back into "O for the wings of a dove", refreshed as if by a timely hit of wasabi or the heady crunch of a concealed cardamom pod. The first time I heard it, I actually laughed. It was so naughty, but in its own way so deliciously right! Etheldreda smiled, I'm sure, even if the beige brigade didn't...

    Comment

    • jonfan
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 1464

      #17
      Originally posted by DracoM View Post
      Everybody's equal, are they? Hmm.
      Test that interesting assertion against the musical resources available on site for a number of foundations who regularly appear on CE.
      Yes, equal in that for an hour Radio 3 is yours.

      Comment

      • Magnificat

        #18
        Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
        Recruitment is a major issue even where there is a choir school, but I daresay VCC/Magnificat might opine that that's because we're all going about it in the wrong way and are generally incompetent. Ho hum.
        Q

        All I have ever advocated is that since the usual recruitment methods ( voice trials, be a chorister for a day etc ) don't seem to work that well in attracting enough potential choristers it is vital that DoMs look at other ways of finding enough boys ( girls do not seem to cause such problems ).

        I have quoted the first law of marketing. If customers are not coming to you then you must go to them.

        For example, now that Ofsted has announced that it is going to put much more emphasis on a more rounded curriculum where music is given much greater importance and employers have said that they are looking for people who can show that they have done more than just garner shed loads of A stars in GCSE, shouldn't DoMs be getting out and about around the schools and really promoting what choirs have to offer kids.

        This includes choir school DoMs as well as non - choir school DoMs in my opinion.

        I doubt, however, that many have the energy needed to do this sort of thing; and as regards opening up cathedral choirs with choir schools to boys whose parents may wish them to attend state schools and whereby the choirs would become a real part of their local communities, there always seem to be too many obstacles ( largely imagined in my view ) to overcome. There just doesn't seem to be any sort of dynamism or 'can do' attitude amongst the cathedral professionals in this respect.

        As for reviews of CE. There might not be much point to them but I suppose it is good that people still value and are interested enough in the cathedral choral tradition to comment on the broadcasts however wacky their views are to others who, as admitted above, still read them nevertheless.

        St Edmundsbury's problem, by the way, doesn't seem to be recruitment of boys but getting them to sing in tune which has nothing to do with having a choir school or not having one.

        Actually I could have sworn that it was girls singing but the cathedral music list doesn't state that it was a choir other than the cathedral choir which their site states to be boys and men.

        I found the singing to be flat most of the time which girls can tend to, boys having more of a tendency to sharpness in my experience.

        VCC.

        Comment

        • terratogen
          Full Member
          • Nov 2011
          • 113

          #19
          Originally posted by Magnificat View Post
          Actually I could have sworn that it was girls singing but the cathedral music list doesn't state that it was a choir other than the cathedral choir which their site states to be boys and men.
          Perhaps there were supplementary girl choristers stuck singing safely out of sight. This would have a precedent at St Edmundsbury.

          Comment

          • light_calibre_baritone

            #20
            Originally posted by Magnificat View Post
            Q

            I found the singing to be flat most of the time which girls can tend to, boys having more of a tendency to sharpness in my experience.

            VCC.
            Haha! Talk about armchair punditry...

            Comment

            • Quilisma
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 181

              #21
              I can assure you that cathedral music departments DO have the will, energy, commitment and optimistic ingenuity to do all they can to recruit boys. If you think DoMs sit around all day blithely twiddling their thumbs then you are quite simply wrong. There are all sorts of mitigating factors: local schools and churches who show little or no interest in participating in outreach projects (some respond favourably, many pointedly don't), parents who are reluctant even to consider choristerships, and not infrequently institutional bureaucracy whereby these things are handled by marketing people. Some institutions also carry the burden of a less than friendly reputation in the locality, even though such impressions tend to be decades out of date. But we shall never give up, and it's certainly not the fault of those we DO get, who carry the torch forward valiantly.

              Oh, and the thing about girls singing flat and boys singing sharp isn't as true as you may think, in my experience of singing regularly variously with boys, teenage girls, young adult women and ladies "of a certain age"...

              Comment

              • jean
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7100

                #22
                Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
                ...ladies "of a certain age"...
                Age has nothing whatever to do with the ability to sing in tune!

                Comment

                • Quintessentially

                  #23
                  Originally posted by jonfan View Post
                  It sounded like a choir that is work in progress and not ready for national exposure.
                  Hey! Everyone has a bad day, we've all been there - it's just unfortunate it happened when the nation was tuned in, and was that a mobile phone I heard... Like many of you I've heard St Edmundsbury on past broadcasts when they were up there with the big guys. IMO it was a poor choice to expose the lads who clearly had nerves a twitching and lacked confidence to sing out on the big occasion - a training issue along with singing accuracy may be? Bairstow Lamentation... as an anthem!!! Really liked the Bingham piece and of course Statham - lovely 'Glory be...'. Again IMO, the men came across as being confident in what they were doing and conveyed, to my aging ears anyway, a pleasant ensemble and timbre (early micing problems apart in the alto section). Clearly St Edmundsbury has some work to do with the top line so lets wish them lots of luck and encouragement and hope to hear them in better form sometime soon.

                  Comment

                  • french frank
                    Administrator/Moderator
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 30654

                    #24
                    Welcome, Quintessentially, you join the board at its most piquant and waspish. (I wouldn't, as the joke goes, know a sharp from a hashtag ..) Never a dull moment here! Ubi caritas ...
                    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                    Comment

                    • Quilisma
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 181

                      #25
                      Yes, welcome, Quintessentially! For the record, I wholeheartedly concur with everything you have said here. And Jean, you're quite right that age has nothing to do with the ability to sing in tune. That was basically my point; neither does biological sex...

                      Comment

                      • Quilisma
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 181

                        #26
                        Yes, welcome, Quintessentially! And Jean, you're quite right that age has nothing to do with the ability to sing in tune. That was basically my point; neither does biological sex...

                        Comment

                        • Wolsey
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 419

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Magnificat View Post
                          Q - All I have ever advocated is that since the usual recruitment methods (voice trials, be a chorister for a day etc) don't seem to work that well in attracting enough potential choristers it is vital that DoMs look at other ways of finding enough boys[snip].

                          I have quoted the first law of marketing. If customers are not coming to you then you must go to them. [snip] ...shouldn't DoMs be getting out and about around the schools and really promoting what choirs have to offer kids. This includes choir school DoMs as well as non-choir school DoMs in my opinion. I doubt, however, that many have the energy needed to do this sort of thing; [snip] There just doesn't seem to be any sort of dynamism or 'can do' attitude amongst the cathedral professionals in this respect.
                          The usual ill-informed nonsense from Magnificat who has forgotten that outreach has been well-established since Truro's initial efforts in 2000, and that there are DoMs who have been quietly involving themselves in this, in addition to Asst and Choir School DoMs. As for the comment that "...the usual recruitment methods (voice trials, be a chorister for a day etc) don't seem to work that well in attracting enough potential choristers", where is your evidence? My foundation's 'Be a Chorister for a Day' has been immensely successful these past four years, with six pre-probationers currently in the wings, and another three who were successful in audition and are waiting to start when space permits. That's my evidence.

                          Comment

                          • DracoM
                            Host
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 13009

                            #28
                            Have to say that to help the Hosting for this Forum, I do trawl cathedral sites, and the number who have all manner of recruiting schemes for both boy and girls grows every time I look. On that evidence, I wouldn't be able to support VCC in the assertion that there seems to be no dynamism'. OTOH, it may well depend on the particular D&C involved, their liturgical outlook, and, maybe even more so, the amount of money available to mount an initiative. Would they not be determining factors?

                            Comment

                            • Magnificat

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Wolsey View Post
                              The usual ill-informed nonsense from Magnificat who has forgotten that outreach has been well-established since Truro's initial efforts in 2000, and that there are DoMs who have been quietly involving themselves in this, in addition to Asst and Choir School DoMs. As for the comment that "...the usual recruitment methods (voice trials, be a chorister for a day etc) don't seem to work that well in attracting enough potential choristers", where is your evidence? My foundation's 'Be a Chorister for a Day' has been immensely successful these past four years, with six pre-probationers currently in the wings, and another three who were successful in audition and are waiting to start when space permits. That's my evidence.
                              Wolsey

                              The evidence is that DoMs always seem to be bemoaning the fact that fewer and fewer boys are coming forward for auditions.

                              Outreach is NOT primarily a recruitment initiative, rather the making available of cathedral musical resources to children who do not have much music ( especially singing ) tuition at state schools.

                              DoMs may get some recruits from it but in my opinion need to be much, much more proactive in getting out and about in their communities ( not just the schools ) to promote their choirs and the benefits of singing in choirs generally. Few do it on the scale necessary as far as I can see. It must be non - stop irrespective as to whether they have enough boys for the time being. ( Three auditioned probationers waiting to start and six un - auditioned from the last four years recruiting efforts is no where near enough - only two potential recuits a year on average!! ). With boys voices breaking earlier and earlier I should think a steady waiting list of at least a dozen or so auditioned boys is the least a DoM would need to be able to maintain the existing required numbers in any cathedral choir.

                              It is no use their just sitting back waiting to see who may come to them as a result of an advertisement or two.

                              And just why are cathedral choirs restricted to boys who attend the associated school where one exists? This completely shuts them off from their communities and means that boys who are good enough to sing in these choirs and their parents would like them to do so are not able to do so.

                              As I have said Ofsted are coming on very strongly for much more emphasis on the arts and music in children's education and lives rather than just the three Rs and employers have said they want much more rounded individuals rather than just academics. The chance is there for enterprising DoMs to really get into their communities and schools and spreading the choral gospel as it were.

                              They won't take it because so many of them just want things to carry on in the same old way doing very little thinking outside the box, or leaving it to others, usually enthusiastic amateurs, to try to ensure that the Anglican cathedral choral tradition is preserved for future generations.

                              If the boys won't come to them the professional DoMs will eventually give the choir to the girls or professional/ semi professional adults. As long as they get paid they will be happy. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them frankly.

                              VCC.

                              Comment

                              • Wolsey
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 419

                                #30
                                Magnificat - as you're clearly the fount of all knowledge and feel qualified to criticise cathedral DoMs publicly, why not contact the Cathedral Organists' Association here and ask to give a talk at next month's Conference on how they should be doing their job. Your advice would be appreciated, I am sure...

                                Comment

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