CE King's College, Cambridge. Wed, 4th March

[Caussade]

Simon

Cathedral musicians on the same level as brain surgeons and plumbers that is hilarious.

Come on, some DOMs do get very stale in their choice of music for services. There are many reasons for this no doubt, not least an element of laziness in my opinion. I'm sure that they could easily teach the choristers to sing a difficult piece but take the easy option quite often - human nature being what it is.

What is wrong with a member of the congregation, or a member of this forum for that matter, suggesting some items they could do for a change. Are DOMs so arrogant that they despise people's humble opinions. Mind you this is a problem in the church generally. Clericalism is a bane. It is also ,of course, the problem in politics with all the professional politicians we have.

No, the professionals are not the fount of all knowledge and wisdom.

Never mind the Howells' Responses, I wouldn't trust the survival of the great
Anglican choral tradition to professional musicians.

VCC

So St Alban's don't do the Howells responses because they lack the necessary rehearsal time, but everyone else shies away from difficult repertoire because they're too lazy to bother teaching it to their choirs, being endowed with all the rehearsal time they could possibly want. Yes, I'm sure that must be it.

[Magnificat]

So St Alban's don't do the Howells responses because they lack the necessary rehearsal time, but everyone else shies away from difficult repertoire because they're too lazy to bother teaching it to their choirs, being endowed with all the rehearsal time they could possibly want. Yes, I'm sure that must be it.

Caussade,

I said that there are many reasons why DoMs might not want to teach choristers a difficult piece and that an element of laziness may be one of these.

I have no idea why they don't do it at St Albans but they certainly do not have the luxury of the rehearsal time they have in Oxbridge or London for example.

I wish people would read what I write rather than try to put words in my mouth.

VCC

[Gabriel Jackson]

Caussade,

I said that there are many reasons why DoMs might not want to teach choristers a difficult piece and that an element of laziness may be one of these.

I wish people would read what I write rather than try to put words in my mouth.

VCC

Er...no you didn't. You wrote: "More likely their choirs aren't up to doing the Howells responses!"

[light_calibre_baritone]

VCC - Branding some DoMs as lazy is rather questionable. I suggest you get back to us once you've spent a few days running a cathedral or cathedral-like choir.

There's also such a thing as 'repertoire' for most choirs. You spice things up around your library of standard works... But you know that.

[DracoM]

Many DoMs must wish they had to hand precisely the choir to sing everything, clergy and congregations to appreciate it, and above all the money to constantly replenish stocks of 'repertoire'. A juggling act deserving sympathy, I would suggest.

[Simon Biazeck]

Trying to keep things calm, folks, I am reminded of adverts that Lincoln Cathedral used to place in the local press for (e.g.) 'a bass lay clerk who can also undertake plumbing work in the cathedral'.

On the subject of Howells' Responses, I tried to get Barry Rose to do them once and he said they were too long and complicated to fit into a normal evensong...rather reflecting Simon's view of them in #7

Things are quite calm a jocular! Trying to reason with a jellyfish is a little frustrating, but nothing I can't handle, thanks very much.

I think Barry Rose's response to you was perfectly reasonable. The Howells set, alas, is not going to get a regular outing, despite the glorious harmony and counterpoint.

[Simon Biazeck]

Many DoMs must wish they had to hand precisely the choir to sing everything, clergy and congregations to appreciate it, and above all the money to constantly replenish stocks of 'repertoire'. A juggling act deserving sympathy, I would suggest.

Quite so.

[Chris Watson]

My grandfather was very good friends with Watkins Shaw, with whom I spent many afternoons chatting about music. He always said that after Smith his favourite responses were Clucas, because they were engaging musically but were also liturgically perfect. I remember asking him about the Howells, and he said (I paraphrase) "wonderful music, awful responses".

[Magnificat]

Many DoMs must wish they had to hand precisely the choir to sing everything, clergy and congregations to appreciate it, and above all the money to constantly replenish stocks of 'repertoire'. A juggling act deserving sympathy, I would suggest.

Draco et al

Don't forget that it is not the professionals in cathedral music departments or the clergy who raise the money to keep them going. It is, in the main, the amateur enthusiasts and volunteers of cathedral music trusts who do this hard work

Sometimes, it seems to me, the often superhuman efforts of members of cathedral congregations in this regard are not appreciated by DoMs and Deans and Chapters with their desire to keep the music and the types of services in which it is sung entirely to themselves.

It is usually just Eucharists and Evensong. Get rid of Matins and all the all the wonderful music that goes with it ( modern clergy don't like it and it makes life easier for the musicians) but which many of the congregation still want to hear sung as much as Mass settings.

Why shouldn't the congregation who provide so much of the finance have a say in this and be able to tell the musicians and clergy to give as well as take and put in a bit more effort as far as the music is concerned.

VCC

[jean]

...Get rid of Matins...

Matins (or even Mattins) was doomed when the Eucharist became the main morning service, when everything edged in a more high-church direction.

You used to be able to tell by looking at the board outside just how 'high' any Anglican church was, by the services it offered.

That was even before you stepped inside and smelt the incense (or not) - though not many cathedrals have got as far as incense AFAIK.

[teamsaint]

Matins (or even Mattins) was doomed when the Eucharist became the main morning service, when everything edged in a more high-church direction.

You used to be able to tell by looking at the board outside just how 'high' any Anglican church was, by the services it offered.

That was even before you stepped inside and smelt the incense (or not) - though not many cathedrals have got as far as incense AFAIK.

Salisbury Cathedral has always retained a choral Matins service, although I wouldn't describe it as very High Church. ( although experts may disagree).

It used to be at 11.15, but these days is at 9.15 which makes rather more sense.

[jean]

Sense? In what sense?

[Caussade]

Draco et al

Don't forget that it is not the professionals in cathedral music departments or the clergy who raise the money to keep them going. It is, in the main, the amateur enthusiasts and volunteers of cathedral music trusts who do this hard work

Sometimes, it seems to me, the often superhuman efforts of members of cathedral congregations in this regard are not appreciated by DoMs and Deans and Chapters with their desire to keep the music and the types of services in which it is sung entirely to themselves.

It is usually just Eucharists and Evensong. Get rid of Matins and all the all the wonderful music that goes with it ( modern clergy don't like it and it makes life easier for the musicians) but which many of the congregation still want to hear sung as much as Mass settings.

Why shouldn't the congregation who provide so much of the finance have a say in this and be able to tell the musicians and clergy to give as well as take and put in a bit more effort as far as the music is concerned.

VCC

What wonderful music would that be? Some nice Gibbons settings, but most of the 19th and early 20th C Matins repertoire is musically dismal, and there is only a small handful of worthwhile and liturgically practical modern Matins settings. In one cathedral of my close acquaintance Matins was dropped for eminently sensible reasons: it put enormous pressure on Sunday morning rehearsal time; the congregation never numbered more than 6 people; chorister parents felt increasingly that the day was unreasonably long for the children singing three services (they were in the building for 7 hours), and this put a serious dent in recruitment. The few congregants who did attend saw the point entirely - they were without exception generous donors to the music - and continued to donate in the interests of the greater good of the music. Recruitment also recovered, very dramatically. It is ironic that in view of your low opinion of politicians that you should imply that financial support of a cathedral's music entitles you to say how it's run. How could that really work in practice? What happens if one donor loves the Howells responses and the other hates them, and both insist that their continued support is predicated on the set always/never being sung when they are present? This is not a ridiculous question - it's the logical conclusion to your reasoning. As for rehearsal time - just what sort of schedule do you think the London choirs run on? St Paul's and probably the Abbey (last time I looked) have no more than15 minutes with the full choir before a service. Westminster Cathedral I think may have even less than that for Vespers, but I am very happy to be corrected on that point. Given that so many of the men are likely to be deps it would be liturgical suicide to stage anything needing protracted periods of tutti rehearsal unless it's very carefully planned. Yes Oxbridge is different, but then by and large they do tend to programme much more ambitious music.

[teamsaint]

Sense? In what sense?

excuse my liturgical ignorance, Jean, I always assumed that Matins was an early morning service, but perhaps I am wrong.

As a service " belonging to the morning", or whatever other description one picks from those available, it always seemed a bit odd having it drifting past Mid day, and starting after Eucharist which began at 10.00

[ardcarp]

The trouble is, many cathedrals and parish churches now have a morning service which tries to encompass both...e.g. it may start with some responses and a Psalm and then morph into Eucharist. That plus a sermon makes it last at least an hour and a half...a strain on the bladders of elderly Anglicans if nothing else.

As far as:

but most of the 19th and early 20th C Matins repertoire is musically dismal,

...what about all the Te Deums and Jubilates ever written? Much of the Victorian/Edwardian repertoire is arguably not the finest art-music ever written, but dismal? I still find Stanford's good old Te Deum in B flat quite stirring to sing/play/listen to.