Eton Choir Book - Huelgas - Sat 7th Feb 1pm

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But, apart from that ...

[ardcarp]

You can put more than one phrase into each post, ferney.

Whatever one performs, it's a good if unfashionable idea to help the audience to enjoy it. I think you know that's what I meant!

[Miles Coverdale]

but as you hint, slight variations in dynamics and tempo help to make (what is for some) slightly arcane music more accessible. In some ways bringing music to life will always transcend the mere dots on the paper.

That's not actually what I meant. I don't think variations in tempo or dynamics in themselves do anything to make this music more accessible (I'm not even sure what that word means in the context of this music). Imposing a later aesthetic on music from this period doen't necessarily do it any favours.

I noticed the same effect on their CD: this phrase a little faster, this one a little slower. All of this draws attention to the performance of the music (rather than the music itself) in a way that I don't think was originally intended. I think the music's orignal function within the liturgy was to draw the minds of those present to the contemplation of higher things; it wasn't 'listened to' in the modern sense.

[ardcarp]

Your point taken. Perhaps better-known Palestrina makes my point. Used liturgically (as a few Masses, e.g. Papae Marcelli, Missa Brevis, are in Anglican cathedrals) it's great to let the phrases sing out for themselves in an acoustic they were designed for. However in a concert setting, it is being 'listened to', and when you include the Credo (often omitted in today's church use), one does feel the urge to vary the pace a bit and to do some dynamic contrasts. Incidentally, the most exciting performance of the Tallis Lamentations I and II which I took part in was brilliantly directed to sweep the audience along with its meaning. Each Hebrew letter was sung slowly and solemnly, but each succeeding verse brought something different and expressive. You would most likely have hated it! But we did 'engage' a vast audience in a vast Abbey.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Whatever one performs, it's a good if unfashionable idea to help the audience to enjoy it. I think you know that's what I meant!

Yes, I did - but I do wonder about "helping the audience to enjoy it". I honestly believe that this can be a misleading concept - I always prefer it when performers perform the Music to their best ability and with their fullest commitment to it - and then let me decide for myself whether I enjoy it, or gradually acquire a taste for it, or not. When it's repertoire I'm not familiar with, I wouldn't want the performers to "adapt" or "bend" the Music to conform to a style which I do know - I'd prefer not to have any "help", other than more performances. I believe that "the audience" is a large (one hopes!) collection of individuals, and trying to "help" them all would cause as much discontent as enjoyment.

[ardcarp]

large (one hopes!)

Ah, bums on seats...not to be sneezed at.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah, bums on seats...not to be sneezed at.

... nor, indeed, "sniffed"

[DracoM]

What stands out for me about the ECB is what it tells us about the amazing skills of ALL the singers for whom it must have been written. Youi don ;t go on writing liturgical music for teams who can't negotiate it. And the demands made by the scores are pretty intense.

[ardcarp]

Anyone tried singing the Machaut Mass? That's an experience.

[DracoM]

Just the once, and most of us simply fell about laughing with embarrassment at our own fumbling!

[Vox Humana]

What stands out for me about the ECB is what it tells us about the amazing skills of ALL the singers for whom it must have been written. Youi don ;t go on writing liturgical music for teams who can't negotiate it. And the demands made by the scores are pretty intense.

Absolutely. What is even more amazing to me is that, almost as soon as English choirboys start being trained to sing written polyphony, they emerge singing in this extremely complex style. One wonders at what cost they were trained. One thinks of poor Thomas Tusser and of Robin, the treble, who, at Henry VIII's command, Wolsey's choirmaster Richard Pygott sent to William Cornysh of Henry's chapel, hoping that Cornysh would treat him properly, "'otherwyse than he doith hys owne".

[Gabriel Jackson]

What stands out for me about the ECB is what it tells us about the amazing skills of ALL the singers for whom it must have been written. Youi don ;t go on writing liturgical music for teams who can't negotiate it. And the demands made by the scores are pretty intense.

Composers write music that is too difficult for the performers it is written for all the time and they always have. I am not suggesting that is the case with the Eton Choirbook composers but we also have no idea what standard of performance they were expecting or wanted. The music is difficult but not THAT difficult and, arguably it was less so to the singers it was written for since that was the only music they sang than it is to modern singers.

[Miles Coverdale]

One factor in the emergence of choristers sufficiently skilled to sing polyphony this was the simplifying of musical notation. Things like the fearsome proportions and the use of two or three different colours found in the Old Hall manuscript had all but disappeared by the time Eton was copied. Yes, there are a few passages in major prolation with half-coloured notes and some quite complex proportional notation, but these are only found in the pieces for men's voices or in the lower voices of full-choir works. The music boys are required to sing in pieces like Browne's Stabat mater may be difficult, but its notation is comparatively straightforward.

I was fortunate enough to be introduced to Andrew Parrott recently and had an extremely interesting conversation with him about, amongst other things, music from the Eton Choirbook. Apparently he has a large article about this and other choir-related matters coming out in the next issue of the journal Early Music, which I'm looking forward to reading. His recording of Browne's Stabat mater and O Maria salvatoris mater were what got me interested in this music in the first place.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I was fortunate enough to be introduced to Andrew Parrott recently and had an extremely interesting conversation with him about, amongst other things, music from the Eton Choirbook. Apparently he has a large article about this and other choir-related matters coming out in the next issue of the journal Early Music, which I'm looking forward to reading. His recording of Browne's Stabat mater and O Maria salvatoris mater were what got me interested in this music in the first place.

This sounds very interesting. That Browne/Carver/Taverner disc remains, for me, one of the greatest recordings of that repertoire (and the Taverner Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitis disc and the two Tallis discs are wonderfully persuasive too).

[Miles Coverdale]

This sounds very interesting. That Browne/Carver/Taverner disc remains, for me, one of the greatest recordings of that repertoire (and the Taverner Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitis disc and the two Tallis discs are wonderfully persuasive too).

Absolutely. They are still some of the finest recordings of this repertoire there are. And, what's more, they're at the right pitch. His version of Tallis's first set of Lamentations is still the benchmark recording for me.