CE St Martin-in the-Fields Wed, Dec 10th 2014

[DracoM]

In CE, the BBC quite rightly believes in diversity in matter and manner, selecting from cathedrals to smaller foundations, Oxbridge college choirs, sometimes even school choirs [ recently Winchester College] in covering / broadcasting that religious diversity.

The singers are boy-led, girl-led, women-led, infrequently adult male. We have very recently had Roman Catholic services, there are Russian Orthodox services form time to time. It would be astonishing if every CE pleased everybody. Furthermore, there are regular archive broadcasts- recently one from Christ Church Cathedral Oxford from 1974.

Actually there are some staggeringly good boy-led choirs outside the UK - the internet is worth scouring - and in any event, many might suggest that the'traditional' UK boy-led choir is under some threat in the current climate.

[ardcarp]

Welcome JG and thanks for your first post. May it be one of many!

is it not strange to criticise a church service for having religious parts?

We all know in our heart of hearts that, yes, it is strange. At a frivolous level some of us here feel that churches would run just fine without the clergy! But seriously, a profoundly spiritual experience (substitute 'religious' for 'spiritual' if you like) is to be had from liturgical forms. CE is a relatively simple and undemonstrative one, but it can still be disturbed by intrusions that are not called for in the BCP.

(BTW, I'm sure one of our Members in particular will be delighted to hear of your endorsement of St Albans!)

[mw963]

As it was I that initiated the criticism of the clergy-interventions, I can confirm that for me one of the glories of Choral Evensong is the idea of "less is more" on the priest front; I may well be an exception (peculiar might describe me) but I love the flow of the service that is UNINTERRUPTED by being bumped back to earth in order to be fed some snippet of information (something that happened far too often in this broadcast) or some explanation.

As to a sermon, it seems to me that there's occasionally a Pavlovian reaction that goes along the lines of "We've got a broadcast, I'd better justify my presence and do a sermon". Most of the "proper" cathedrals know better than to fall into this trap, but I'm afraid that in reality the sermon in this broadcast shed little light on what it set out to do, namely to tell us what heaven would be like! Although in fact a decent Evensong WITHOUT a sermon comes close to my idea!!

I haven't checked the statistics but we do seem to have had an awful lot of "non traditional cathedral" (ie colleges, barracks, festivals, Roman Catholic venues) broadcasts in the last year; the figures in fact may not have changed much in the last few years but compared to the nineteen-eighties we seem to have fewer of what some on here might term "run of the mill" cathedrals; run of the mill they may be but they are my favourites, but I come away from a lot of Wednesday afternoons wishing there were more of them.....

Having said all that I did enjoy the St Martin's broadcast.

But - perhaps predictably - I didn't particularly enjoy the Rogg, although it has to be said it's better than the awful Leighton; I think last Sunday's Radio 4 morning broadcast ended with our dear Kenneth, mercifully quickly faded by the Con announcer.

(Thinking about it I realise that my objection to clergy wittering is exactly the same as my visceral objection to current Radio 3 presentation; the likes of Holmstom/Rigby/Ruthven/Berkeley/Curle were so discreet; one only found out their names by concentrating hard, cf the ghastly matey-ness of the current bunch of would-be-crowd-pleasers)

[mercia]

Liked the vol.

me too, very much - the only part of the service I caught. Has Rogg written much for the instrument ?

[mw963]

At a frivolous level some of us here feel that churches would run just fine without the clergy!

We have a vicar here who refuses to move on to pastures new after twenty years, and a couple of years ago a deal was done with him that he would "allow" a Carol Service at one of the smaller parishes in the group AND in addition not turn up himself. (He's one of those priests who objects to any Carol singing before Christmas Eve, and even allowing that seems to be a struggle for him).

As a result the church is PACKED for that one event, with just a handful of people at the other services.

It's terribly sad when priests become stumbling blocks. Worst of it is that ours just cannot recognise the situation.

[DracoM]

In Avila, our guide described exactly that situation ref the cathedral and the local bishop / cardinal and his attitudes without showing much understanding.

One of us pointed over the walls to a church two or three miles out. She told us that there was a fine choir which sang every Sunday the great liturgical music of the Catholic Church, mostly Spanish of course. The point she was making was that this church with a huge line of parked cars was OUTSIDE the jurisdiction of the prelate who presided in Avila! The Avila cathedral main 11 a.m. High Mass that we went to later had about fifty to sixty souls, and of those we reckoned about half were tourists. Service was one priest bellowing ever so slightly off note throughout through a microphone, and a decrepit nun playing a portable electronic keyboard and warbling into HER mike. It was almost laughably unspiritual and depressing. So QED.

Oh yes, and when we were looking round the cathedral later (where Victoria was a child chorister), we asked the guide abut Victoria. Answer: 'Who?' I kid you not: the guide did not know anything about Victoria or his relevance to this church. Makes you weep. Three or four organs, and in the centre of the high altar, the electronic keyboard. Bishop's attitude was that such elaborate structures / liturgies / musics got in the way of worship.

Ahem.

[Roger Judd]

Draco - this summer my wife and I holidayed in northern Spain, and happened upon the Cathedral in León. It was the day they commemorate the dedication of the church, and we heard that there would be a special Mass at 6pm, at which, our guide told us that we'd hear the new organ. So we came back at the appointed hour. The 'organist' turned up 5 minutes before the service, arranged a microphone boom in front of him, and accompanied himself. Tremulants were on all registrations, his walking shoes failed to make contact with the right pedals more often than not, harmonies were from the 'Enid Blyton' DIY book ... you probably get the picture. Oh, did I mention that he was playing a 5-manual Klais instrument, designed by Jean Guillou, and costing €2.5 million. One of THE most dispiriting occasions I've ever witnessed.
RJ

[jean]

Not wanting Christmas to start while it's still Advent is not the same as not wanting any decent music at all, ever.

[DracoM]

And certain members of the Spanish hierarchy were close, if not closest, allies of Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict. So it is said.

[jean]

What on earth are you talking about?

[mw963]

Not wanting Christmas to start while it's still Advent is not the same as not wanting any decent music at all, ever.

No, but that's the least of his/our problems!

[mw963]

Oh, did I mention that he was playing a 5-manual Klais instrument, designed by Jean Guillou, and costing €2.5 million. One of THE most dispiriting occasions I've ever witnessed.
RJ

An awful reminder to all of us that we must cherish the musical tradition we have in Anglican Cathedrals. Seen similar in France too. Thanks for the anecdote Roger - he'd have got a fright if you'd quietly asked to have a go after the service!
.

[Roger Judd]

Ha ha! I did, and he feigned not to understand my faltering Spanish, switched the console off, shut it up and left!
RJ

[mw963]

Superb!! If only he knew what an opportunity he was missing! I (for example) would give my eye-teeth to watch/hear you play that bit of Dupre again (op sixty something I think in A) that you did from Windsor back in the mid/late 90s....

[bach736]

Has Rogg written much for the instrument ?

Indeed - about 28 works, totalling some three hours of music and more - organ + instruments and orchestral.