CE Christ Church Cathedral Oxford 5th November, 2014

[Miles Coverdale]

Yes, thank you for reminding me of that - it's a long time since I looked at the original. However, is the "3" in the Superius really redundant for a sight-reading singer who cannot see the other partbooks, or only for us who can see a score? It's a bit belt and braces, perhaps, given that the rhythm in the other parts should be audibly clear, but...?

Well, it's redundant in the sense that it's saying the same thing twice.

The following passage from Willi Apel's The Notation of Polyphonic Music 900–1600 is worth quoting: ‘In the sources of the sixteenth century, the sign 3 occurs most frequently for shorter or longer sections in compositions marked cut-C. Here it must be noted that as a rule the tripla does not refer to the diminutio of the preceding section, but to the integer valor. In other words, three semibreves of the tripla are equal, not to one, but to two semibreves of the preceding section. Clear evidence of this is found where passages marked cut-C and 3 alternate in both parts.’ So in the case of Byrd, the '3' does indeed mean tripla proportion, but in relation to undiminished note values, not those shown under cut-C, where the stroke implies diminution by a factor of two.

[Vox Humana]

Master Coverdale, thank you for that quote. It's a good point. Although I have consulted Apel's book from time to time in the past, I have never had my own copy. A rather glaring omission from my library, I'm afraid.

[Miles Coverdale]

Master Coverdale, thank you for that quote. It's a good point. Although I have consulted Apel's book from time to time in the past, I have never had my own copy. A rather glaring omission from my library, I'm afraid.

It is a very good book. Secondhand copies aren't that expensive, under £15.

[Vox Humana]

Thanks. I will see to it! :)

[ardcarp]

I'm following every twist and turn of this fascinating detective story involving prolation, mensuration and all that stuff.....but I do hope people who just listened to this archive CE from CCO (that is, Choral Evensong from Christchurch Cathedral Oxford) will not be deterred, in the face of such dazzling erudition, from posting to say what they thought of it.

[Finzi4ever]

Great to hear this and puts paid to the idea that the current, quirky psalm rhythms at Aedes Christi go that far back.
Surely they must still be grieving the loss of that 1884 Willis Tuba?

[Miles Coverdale]

Great to hear this and puts paid to the idea that the current, quirky psalm rhythms at Aedes Christi go that far back.

As I said here aboult a year ago, it dates from Francis Grier's time.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I always associate the opening of the Tippett Mag with a loud, rounded, high-presssue tuba stop....just not the same with a thin classical reed, be it ever so colourful.

Is that what Tippett wanted though? The score is not clear ("Tromba or Tuba")

[Roger Judd]

Gabriel - Tippett wrote his Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis for St John's College Cambridge, as you know. When George Guest asked him for the piece, he demonstrated the Trompeta Real on the then new Chapel Organ, and the composer was greatly taken by its incisive sound, and so featured it in the Magnificat. At the time, 1961, that type of organ sound was unique to St John's - much more usual was the Tuba or Tromba type sound, so presumably the publishers played safe and put that in the score. For me, the organ part has only come fully alive when heard at St John's - there are still not many churches in England that have a stop similar to the Trompeta - most of them are too thin toned.
RJ

[Gabriel Jackson]

Gabriel - Tippett wrote his Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis for St John's College Cambridge, as you know. When George Guest asked him for the piece, he demonstrated the Trompeta Real on the then new Chapel Organ, and the composer was greatly taken by its incisive sound, and so featured it in the Magnificat. At the time, 1961, that type of organ sound was unique to St John's - much more usual was the Tuba or Tromba type sound, so presumably the publishers played safe and put that in the score. For me, the organ part has only come fully alive when heard at St John's - there are still not many churches in England that have a stop similar to the Trompeta - most of them are too thin toned.
RJ

Thanks Roger. I knew Tippett was very excited by that trumpet stop at St John's but I didn't know what it sounded like.

[ardcarp]

...and for anyone who's confused, 'Tuba' and 'Tromba' both denote the fat rounded high pressure reed stop of English organs of a certain era. The words 'Trumpet' and especially 'Trompeta Real' or Trompette Miliaire' indicate something much more open, brash and brassy. Interesting to hear that the latter is what Tippett wanted. Not often heard that way in the decades 60 - 70 - 80.

[Gabriel Jackson]

...and for anyone who's confused, 'Tuba' and 'Tromba' both denote the fat rounded high pressure reed stop of English organs of a certain era. The words 'Trumpet' and especially 'Trompeta Real' or Trompette Miliaire' indicate something much more open, brash and brassy. Interesting to hear that the latter is what Tippett wanted. Not often heard that way in the decades 60 - 70 - 80.

And while we're on the subject of the Tippett canticles, has a better, greater piece ever been written for the Anglican church in the last 50 years (well, 52 to be exact...)?

[ardcarp]

And while we're on the subject of the Tippett canticles, has a better, greater piece ever been written for the Anglican church in the last 50 years (well, 52 to be exact...)?

Difficult to say. Howells' Take Him Earth for Cherishing was a quite surprising late work, and in my book pretty 'great'. Likewise Mortuos Plango by Jonathan Harvey. I was present at its Winchetser premiere, and it made a huge impression. And his (recently aired on CE) I Love the Lord is up there too. Giles Swayne's Magnificat must surely be one of the most original pieces adopted into the Anglican canon.

As a young student I was asked to do an ad hoc CE with just an afternoon rehearsal. This was my first and scariest encounter with Tippett's Mag and Nunc, which I guess had only just been published. I was too absorbed with getting the dots right to ponder on its greatness. The vicar and congregation were less equivocal! It remains a tricky piece to sing and is not especially 'accessible' to the everyman listener. I like it a lot (big Tippett fan in general) but primus inter pares? Maybe not.

[Philip]

The Howells is definitely up there...I would nominate Patrick Gowers' 'Viri Galilaei' (may be spelt wrong!) which is an extraordinary piece, shame it has to be confined to Ascensiontide!

Personally I don't like the Tippett, but we've had this discussion here before...

[Vox Humana]

What qualifies a piece as "great"?