CE Southwark Cathedral Wed, 21st May 2014

[DracoM]

I wasn't comparing them. I carefully added the qualification of about attached schools because I assume there are all manner of ways of attracting and retaining choristers.

Blimey... I was trying to compliment Southwark. NO comparison was intended or implied.

[underthecountertenor]

So why mention the Temple Choir at all? Let alone saying 'as for Temple Choir'?
Blimey indeed.

[underthecountertenor]

Also, I'm struggling to see where the compliment lay in the comment quoted by Wolsey. Just some rather arid speculation which clearly, albeit misguidedly, sought to use the Temple as its starting point.

[DracoM]

Thank you for the advice.

[underthecountertenor]

A pleasure. I'd normally charge, but this one's on me.

[Magnificat]

I don't think that the noble efforts of recruitment at Southwark can be compared to the Temple Church where choristers receive an academic scholarship to the value of two-thirds fees of the City of London School for Boys. Although most boys attend CLS, the scholarships can be used at any school of the parents' choice.

Wolsey

Since the Temple choir doesn't have an attached school it is a shame that it is, apparently, not open to any boy in the London area ( unlike Southwark ) who would like to sing there and is able enough to do so but just to boys whose parents can afford for them to attend private schools.

Instead of going towards school fees the scholarship money could perhaps help less fortunate parents of kids who are talented singers in other ways e.g. school uniform, cost of fares, cost of school trips etc. It seems to me that the Temple is missing a great opportunity for its choir to enhance its charitable reputation by not, apparently, also trying to reach out to users of the state sector of education.

VCC.

[James Vivian]

Dear VCC,

As a former Director of Music at the Temple Church, I can probably clear up any misunderstandings. Unless the recruitment policy has changed significantly in the past year, the Temple Choir is open to any boy from any school: a boy could sing in the Temple Choir and never set foot in CLSB! Whilst the Temple valued its long association with CLSB (and it is a very good school), the Temple was always mindful that children could be brilliant in ways that a top private school might not recognise. In my time, we had boys who went to many schools. Yes, most went to private schools but a few stayed in the state sector. In the case of the latter, the scholarship could be used in full-time education up to the age of 25. What was important was that we were not forcing a boy down any one route. This was reassuring to headteachers when the music department visited schools throughout London (mainly state, I hasten to add to add) to publicise the scholarships. This was very different to the set up of the 'sister' CLSB choir at St James' Chapel Royal, and why it always seemed a good alternative to the boarding choirs of the capital.

Greetings from Windsor!

James Vivian.

[ardcarp]

VCC

Whilst not wishing to comment on the way The Temple or any other cathedral or collegiate choirs run their affairs, I have a great deal of sympathy with the tenor of your post. I think several of us commented on the dominance of the independent sector in the BBC Church Choir OTY competition. Of course most (all?) independent schools are charities; and because places such as Eton and Winchester do not have the appearance of charities (e.g. providing food and water for the third world) it was an aim of Labour...when it really was a party of the Left....to abolish their charitable status. Many independent schools do now reach out (maybe mindful of the public view of their charitable status) and offer free or subsidised places to kids from 'ordinary' backgrounds.

There are two main issues here.

The first is the excellence of opportunity for music of all types within the independent sector and (with a few exceptions) the impoverished state of music in the maintained sector...of which I regrettably have first hand experience within our household. That scholarships are available in general and in particular to the four specialist schools (Wells, Menuhin, Chethams and Purcell) is a small but significant boon; but one wonders how many get there from the 'ordinary' background we are talking of.

The second point relates to what we could broadly call 'cathedral' music. Those who have laboured amongst the general population to recruit choristers will know how hard it is. There is talent out there in abundance. But there are many factors, including what regrettably must be called 'class issues', acting against such efforts. The practice of Christianity is not widespread, and singing in a church choir is seen as a Christian activity by most people (even though for many of us it isn't). It is quite hard to convince a family of no belief that their child might care to dress up and praise God several times a week (instead of football, majorettes, Tai Chi or whatever). Having got over that barrierer there is Commitment. However keen and committed a child might be, there needs also to be a huge commitment on the part of parents. Commitment in general seems to be on the wane. For instance in our- g-kids' schools (primary and secondary) maybe a club will be started. But the attitude of TEACHERS seems to be 'well if they turn up we'll do something, but if they don't we won't either'. There seems to be a dabbling sort of attitude to everything, and at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old git, things certainly were not like that a couple of generations ago.

I'd better stop rambling. But, VCC, I applaud your ideals, but recognise how hard it must be to achieve them. Hats off to those rare individuals who succeed.

PS Thanks, James for posting about The Temple.

[DracoM]

Many thanks to James Vivian for info and clarification.

I would like to echo ardcarp. Having been very recently a governor at a rural secondary school, I was at first surprised and then dismayed by the attitude of HM to Music, and the dispiriting impact that luke-warmth had on the kids and staff. Out of that school in the last two years alone have come a decent-ish rock band, solo singers - one boy one girl both very promising, pianists, recorder players and some mustard keen brass band players who have been taught their music by the BAND and not in school in any shape or form. Musical kids / parents / families at the school succeed in spite of rather than because of. And it is by no means a 'middle class' school at all.

And I notice that on the Jazz front, the BBC Young Jazz Musician of the Year finalists were almost all at / from independent schools [Chet's St Paul's etc ] . Surprise or not??

[ardcarp]

Musical kids / parents / families at the school succeed in spite of rather than because of.

Our experience exactly.

Wonder if the HM of the school where you were a governor looks at this Forum?

[DracoM]

Alors, tu plaisantes?

[Magnificat]

Dear VCC,

As a former Director of Music at the Temple Church, I can probably clear up any misunderstandings. Unless the recruitment policy has changed significantly in the past year, the Temple Choir is open to any boy from any school: a boy could sing in the Temple Choir and never set foot in CLSB! Whilst the Temple valued its long association with CLSB (and it is a very good school), the Temple was always mindful that children could be brilliant in ways that a top private school might not recognise. In my time, we had boys who went to many schools. Yes, most went to private schools but a few stayed in the state sector. In the case of the latter, the scholarship could be used in full-time education up to the age of 25. What was important was that we were not forcing a boy down any one route. This was reassuring to headteachers when the music department visited schools throughout London (mainly state, I hasten to add to add) to publicise the scholarships. This was very different to the set up of the 'sister' CLSB choir at St James' Chapel Royal, and why it always seemed a good alternative to the boarding choirs of the capital.

Greetings from Windsor!

James Vivian.

James,

Thanks for this.

I must say that until Wolsey's post I had believed that the Temple choir was now open to any boy not just those attending CLS as I seemed to remember applauding some comments a while back on this board ( possibly after a broadcast ) that said exactly this.

The Temple site is rather confusing about scholarships referring as it does to 'subject to selection by the chosen school' a phrase that seems to refer to a private school rather than a state school.

The Temple's actual policy that you outline above is entirely right and sensible in this day and age.

Regards,

VCC

[mopsus]

A German acquaintance years ago sat down at a mainframe computer one evening and logged in. She was suddenly greeted with the word 'ABEND'. 'Abend!' she cheerily replied.

Wikipedia on Abend

[bach736]

Thank you, Mopsus. Good joke!
Fascinating.