CE St John’s College, Cambridge 30th April 2014

[Vox Humana]

Of course, this broadcast featured girls voices up to age 18. Are they really trebles at that age?

When I was young, boys were trebles and girls were sopranos and that was that. I fully expect to go on observing this sexual distinction (for that's all it is) until I die. I see no need to acknowledge female trebles any more than I do female countertenors. Tone quality doesn't enter into it.

[jean]

Didn't David Wulstan always call his (female) top line trebles?

They would be singing a line usually labelled treble, or triplex, in the sources.

And the lower female voices, singing a line labelled mean, were often referred to as means. As I recall.

[Vox Humana]

Yes he did, but, as you appreciate, he was resurrecting an obsolete, historical terminology for scholarly purposes. That's slightly different, I think.

[ardcarp]

Just to put the cat among the pigeons, here's a quote from my resurrection of the Higginbottom thread:

In the May/June issue of Choir and Organ magazine is a splendid appraisal of Edward H's 38 year reign at NCO. The author of the article, David Blackwell, tries to draw him out on the subject of girl choristers. EH declares himself a big supporter of girls' choirs, but goes on to say, "[Boys] can more easily put emotional life into singing when only among males".

[edashtav]

Dear oh dear! I'd hate to sit through one of your lectures if they are anything like this. What a load of rubbish! So what was originally decried as a lack of knowledge of "Christian church music" has mutated into a "lack of knowlege of English cathedral acoustics". Two rather different things. And what actual evidence is there for either assertion?To suggest Bernstein didn't know what a harp can sound like in a resonant acoustic is preposterous. Your distaste for Bernstein's interpretive stance in Mahler and Elgar is hardly grounds for accusing him of incompetence in the composition of sacred music.

Succint, to the point, and correct? More like ill-thought out, patronising, and wrong.

I understand that your criticism was directed at my contribution, Gabriel and I apologise for have enraged you so. It was my purpose only to answer your polite request "Please explain how Bernstein's lack of experience in "Christian Church music" let him down."

It remains my opinion that some cathedral acoustics alter music in a fundamental fashion. I recall the nightmare of attempting to listen to quick string figures answered by woodwind interjections ( during a Mozart symphony) in the complex acoustic of St Paul's Cathedral , London. To my mind, it turned Mozart into soup, a mash-up of figures and lines that left me exhausted after 30 minutes - my ears & brain having been exhausted by trying to unscramble the sounds.

I admit I'm unsympathetic to Lennie Bernstein, the conductor, in much romantic and late-romantic music, whilst I find much to admire in his exciting rhythmic control when he's conducting Copland ( e.g. El Salon Mexico).

I'm happy to defend my opinions and accept they are not "facts". Whether I deserve ad hominem scorn about my ability to deliver talks on other subjects, such as local history, is another matter. However, it may cheer you to learn that of my audience of 60 this afternoon, 6 expressed content whilst a majority (some silent) were discomforted by what I said.

[jean]

Yes he did, but, as you appreciate, he was resurrecting an obsolete, historical terminology for scholarly purposes. That's slightly different, I think.

No, I don't 'appreciate' that at all, I'm afraid, nor do I understand what 'purposes' you think he had in mind.

[jean]

Just to put the cat among the pigeons, here's a quote from my resurrection of the Higginbottom thread:

...EH declares himself a big supporter of girls' choirs, but goes on to say, "[Boys] can more easily put emotional life into singing when only among males".

What on earth does he mean by that?

Have you any idea?

[DracoM]

I think I can see what he means a bit: at a guess, he seems to be saying that boys might feel more comfortable expressing themselves emotionally in music in all-male choirs where the maleness is collectively reaching for the same emotional expressions, whereas young boys might feel a bit embarrassed if there are girls watching them/ listening.

I fear that choristers of both genders can be fairly waspish about each other, and while boys might just laugh off run of the mill stuff by their male mate as joshing / slight bullying etc, similar giggling or joshing from girls about their emotional commitment to a piece if too overtly etc displayed seems somehow to go a bit deeper and more exposing? Hence might deter the boys from giving their all next time?

Anywhere near EH's ideas?

[ardcarp]

I think it was carefully worded, Jean. I was a lay-clerk in a cathedral choir many, many yonks ago, and certainly there was a great esprit de choir..which was of course all male. Times have changed, boys and girls have changed, social attitudes have changed. Maybe we can expect Oxbridge to be a generation or two behind the times!

[edashtav]

Yeah, that's a bit offensive edashtav. It's not the size that matters.......

And I asked you if you'd been there because Chichester has a small but warm acoustic with some bloom; a little closer to a concert hall maybe... and it was written for the building!

Though the first performance didn't actually take place in the cathedral; but I'm sure you know that.

My intention, l_c_b - and I was rushed as I had an engagement- was solely to characterise the acoustics of Chichester Cathedral which to my 13.y.o. mind seemed very un-cathedral-like. I accept your characterisation as accurate and it certailnly confirms my juvenile impressions from 55 years ago. I can see that the chamber version Chichester Psalms would probably sound fine in such an acoustic. My wider point was that such a clear, near concert hall sound is not a characteristic shared by the majority of large Anglican cathedrals and Churches. My worry that Bernstein lacked a depth of knowledge referred to these more complicated aural spaces.

I apologise, unreservedly, for offence caused my failure to explain and to be specific.

[ardcarp]

Hey, steady on, Ed! You're entitled to your opinions and I see no reason why anyone should have taken offence...in fact at least one post has been rather offensive to you! I think all of us 'in the management' (so to speak) want everyone to feel free to express their views. So much the better if the views are principally about the music and its performance.

[Vox Humana]

No, I don't 'appreciate' that at all, I'm afraid, nor do I understand what 'purposes' you think he had in mind.

My apologies, Jean. With The Clerkes of Oxenford Wulstan was recreating - as he saw it - the sound of the Tudor church choir of the sixteenth century, in tone, pitch and interpretations. Therefore he used the names that the Tudors used for the five voices employed in that music - and so did the two professional choirs that were inspired by the Clerkes, the Tallis Scholars and The Sixteen, at least when performing that repertoire. Few people (if any?) now agree with Wulstan's views on pitch and therefore the nature of those five voices, but that is different matter.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I understand that your criticism was directed at my contribution, Gabriel and I apologise for have enraged you so. It was my purpose only to answer your polite request "Please explain how Bernstein's lack of experience in "Christian Church music" let him down."

It remains my opinion that some cathedral acoustics alter music in a fundamental fashion. I recall the nightmare of attempting to listen to quick string figures answered by woodwind interjections ( during a Mozart symphony) in the complex acoustic of St Paul's Cathedral , London. To my mind, it turned Mozart into soup, a mash-up of figures and lines that left me exhausted after 30 minutes - my ears & brain having been exhausted by trying to unscramble the sounds.

I admit I'm unsympathetic to Lennie Bernstein, the conductor, in much romantic and late-romantic music, whilst I find much to admire in his exciting rhythmic control when he's conducting Copland ( e.g. El Salon Mexico).

I'm happy to defend my opinions and accept they are not "facts". Whether I deserve ad hominem scorn about my ability to deliver talks on other subjects, such as local history, is another matter. However, it may cheer you to learn that of my audience of 60 this afternoon, 6 expressed content whilst a majority (some silent) were discomforted by what I said.

I am not enraged in the slightest. If you re-read your original post you might find that your tone was dismissive of Bernstein's ability to do the job he was asked to and that your assertions about his lack of experience were without foundation.

Of course we all know that it is perfectly acceptable to impugn the professional competence of conductors, composers and other musicians, but if anyone questions the veracity of such claims that is a cardinal sin.

[terratogen]

I think I can see what he means a bit: at a guess, he seems to be saying that boys might feel more comfortable expressing themselves emotionally in music in all-male choirs where the maleness is collectively reaching for the same emotional expressions, whereas young boys might feel a bit embarrassed if there are girls watching them/ listening.

I fear that choristers of both genders can be fairly waspish about each other, and while boys might just laugh off run of the mill stuff by their male mate as joshing / slight bullying etc, similar giggling or joshing from girls about their emotional commitment to a piece if too overtly etc displayed seems somehow to go a bit deeper and more exposing? Hence might deter the boys from giving their all next time?

Anywhere near EH's ideas?

Perhaps this is true. If it is, it is, with so snark or politics intended, something that profoundly saddens me.

But if it is, then I suppose we're responsible for making it so and therefore responsible for un-making it. Here's hoping.

[Sonic]

Perhaps this is true. If it is, it is, with so snark or politics intended, something that profoundly saddens me.

But if it is, then I suppose we're responsible for making it so and therefore responsible for un-making it. Here's hoping.

I have choristers of both type, who sing at the same Cathedral separately in the main, but together for bigger services, and you will be happy to hear I don't see the boys being embarrassed by the girls at all, or singing out fully in front of them, or vice versa. However, I do think both choirs are happier within their own same sex environment, particularly the boys, who like to be boys together - the girls are a little more grown up (although the same age ). Actually, despite their age they all seem extremely professional about it!