CE St John’s College, Cambridge 30th April 2014

[DracoM]

Not entirely sure the organ / instrumentalists / choir were quite in synch some of the time in the Bernstein, particularly in the more dynamic and percussive sections. Is it pretty tricky to achieve with harp/percussion /organ in the St John's layout?

Prob for me is that the Chich Psalms are not a favourite of mine: lot of sound and fury wrapped round Manhattan schmalz - IMHO of course.

Good alto solo - but as the very final moments hinted, might have been nice to hear a boy singing the entire solo - yes, I do know it was designed for either countertenor or treble. Tenors had to shout a bit to get heard and did, and from to time, the top line disappeared in the mix - not saying they were not trying, because they sure as hell were, but.... . Not the first time that remark has been made about some foundations on CE. But by and large with some demanding stuff, St John's showed an energetic and willing appetite for challenges, and the trebles have a much more open vowel sound - 'o's, and 'a's very clearly opened up textures.

Voluntary? Hmm. OK, might be a new commission, but a bit run of the mill maybe?

[Wolsey]

I think percussion/harp/organ reduction is a bit naff. Would rather do it with massive choir and orchestra in concert hall or not at all.

Were Bernstein alive today, I really would like to be around to hear his [forthright] response to your telling him that his reduction of the orchestral score was 'naff'...

[edashtav]

Not entirely sure the organ / instrumentalists / choir were quite in synch some of the time in the Bernstein, particularly in the more dynamic and percussive sections. Is it pretty tricky to achieve with harp/percussion /organ in the St John's layout?

Prob for me is that the Chich Psalms are not a favourite of mine: lot of sound and fury wrapped round Manhattan schmalz - IMHO of course.


Voluntary? Hmm. OK, might be a new commission, but a bit run of the mill maybe?

I'm 100% in agreement with DracoM. Bernstein had no experince in Christian Church music and his lack of knowledge let him down in so many regards. A brave, but possibly foolish, choice by St John's. The rapt Introit was ruined for me by a squawky break in intermission at 1'50". The same fault reappeared later.

The voluntary lacked originality and enterprise.

What a disappointing Evensong in terms of repertoire, quality of performance and BBC engineering.

[ardcarp]

I didn't hear the service, but what with BBC glitches and my own broadband only functioning at a speed too low to stream, what is it about this wonderful technological age we are supposed to inhabit? I'll have to wait for Sunday's (hopefully complete) repeat.
Why so much dissing of Leighton and Bernstein? The Leighton Canticles are one of the glories of the Anglican repertory IMO. And the Chichester Psalms is, albeit heart-on-sleeve, a unique and deservedly popular piece; and, being commissioned by Dean Hussey, was FOR the Anglican church if not OF it. I was lucky enough to hear it/them first at a SCF (the full orchestral version) conducted by John Birch, and was quite bowled over by them. So I look forward to Sunday.

[DracoM]

Totally agree about the Leighton canticles - terrific stuff - but don't you think there is a case for a very strong treble line to make them thrilling? If they are sung quite 'men-heavy', they can sound more hectoring than illuminating.

The John's men were very powerful, very confident, very accomplished, and clearly relishing the textures. I get all that, but as said above, for some of the time the trebs had to sing absolutely flat out to establish the line. At times they didn't. Now, of course, I accept that I am hearing a broadcast and not there - a very different musical experience.

Not a lot of ppp in today's CE.

[teamsaint]

Totally agree about the Leighton canticles - terrific stuff - but don't you think there is a case for a very strong treble line to make them thrilling? If they are sung quite 'men-heavy', they can sound more hectoring than illuminating.

The John's men were very powerful, very confident, very accomplished, and clearly relishing the textures. I get all that, but as said above, for some of the time the trebs had to sing absolutely flat out to establish the line. At times they didn't. Now, of course, I accept that I am hearing a broadcast and not there - a very different musical experience.

Not a lot of ppp in today's CE.

Interestingly, a second time out for the Leighton this year.
For comparison, this was from Worcester in January.

A good strong treble line here, as Dracs recommends, I think.

[jean]

...Bernstein had no experince in Christian Church music...

Surely you don't have to be a Christian to set psalms?

[DracoM]

Interesting, teamsaint: a much more contemplative, more numinous, more inward performance altogether, genuine dialogue, each line playing off as opposed to being competitive against the others. The result is that the textures are much clearer. John's was more exciting, more physical, more dynamic, but the Worcester performance had integrity and caught the ear as well for totally different reasons. Bigger acoustic to work with than the John's chapel, of course.

Incidentally, Brian Runnett was the organist on GG's /John's recorded performance of Ireland's 'Greater Love' which I still count as the single best performance of the anthem I have ever heard or ever hope to hear. Every time I sing it, I think of BR's final few bars with awe and longing.

Many thanks.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I'm 100% in agreement with DracoM. Bernstein had no experince in Christian Church music and his lack of knowledge let him down in so many regards. A brave, but possibly foolish, choice by St John's.

Please explain how Bernstein's lack of experience in "Christian Church music" let him down.

[Magnificat]

Interestingly, a second time out for the Leighton this year.
For comparison, this was from Worcester in January.

A good strong treble line here, as Dracs recommends, I think.

teamsaint,

Of course, this broadcast featured girls voices up to age 18. Are they really trebles at that age?

The St John's boys sounded quite young to me.

VCC

[Gabriel Jackson]

teamsaint,

Of course, this broadcast featured girls voices up to age 18. Are they really trebles at that age?

The St John's boys sounded quite young to me.

VCC

Nitpicking about nomenclature seems pretty pointless. Does it matter whether a female 18 year old is a 'treble' or not?

The St Johns boys are quite young this year.

[DracoM]

Very much depends on whether by the time they are 18 or whatever, those lasses are required to retain or affect a timbre and voice production that is usually associated with boys singing i.e. minimal vibrato, pace EH at NCO.

The treble line in that Worcester CE may have been sung by whoever, but the style was pretty trad cathedral sound to me.

Interesting Q: wonder if those same lasses affect the usual way of girls these days when singing along with modern rock and pop, which of course is utterly NOT how that Worcester clip sounds!!?

[edashtav]

Please explain how Bernstein's lack of experience in "Christian Church music" let him down.

I'll try, Gabriel, but I may need to break off & return later as I'm still checking my facts for a lecture that I'm delivering this afternoon.

The critical issue for me is lack of knowledge of English Cathedral acoustics by Bernstein. He was more accustomed to Concert Halls and Theatres with their shorter reverberation periods and their relative "immediacy" of sound. Large church soundscapes and cathedral acoustics are very different: prone to their own idiosyncratic personalities that can muddy and confuse the musical threads. Refracted and reflected corruptions of percussion sounds can reduce their contributions to the level of "and the rest is noise"; the tinkling textures of a harp may be magnified in certain registers into mighty pings, and in others miniaturised to the point of annihilation. Both these effects marred this broadcast of Chichester Psalms for me: I felt that the men of the choir sang too forcefully in reaction to being savaged by splintered percussion and the harp acompaniment to the alto solo occluded the voice, at times but at other moments it virtually disappeared. The chamber version that reduces the instrumental resources to percussion, harp and organ fails to provide a consistently happy and balanced foil for a "small" college or cathedral choir. I wonder whether LB ever heard it in situ and that, if he did so, did he then send a list of revisions to his publisher? I fear not!

There is another dimension - more personal, perhaps to me, one of "taste". DracoM, I think, referred to the "schmaltzy" aspects of some of Bernstein's lyrical moments. The sentimental was part and parcel of Bernstein's musical being - coming through often in his interpretations of Mahler, or , in one of my most queasy musical experiences, in his saccharine and treacle interpretation of Elgar's "Nimrod" in a BBC TV performance. Such music-making sounds, to me, irreverent in a church.
addtition:
I see that ralph iii wrote earlier: I think percussion/harp/organ reduction is a bit naff. Would rather do it with massive choir and orchestra in concert hall or not at all.

Succinct, to the point and, I fear, correct!

[light_calibre_baritone]

The critical issue for me is lack of knowledge of English Cathedral acoustics by Bernstein. He was more accustomed to Concert Halls and Theatres with their shorter reverberation periods and their relative "immediacy" of sound,

Have you been to Chichester Cathedral?!?!

[EnzoElgar]

I see the complete audio of the St John's service, including the Magnificat, has now been put on iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b041y0h2