The Choir - Last straw

[french frank]

Isn't the problem with the new format of programmes like The Choir that they seem to be programmed with the assumption that people's attention spans are becoming shorter and shorter?

That explanation has been, specifically, put forward by the Controller for why people find listening to classical music so dreadfully difficult these days:

"He also spoke of the challenges of providing classical music for a modern audience, with short attention spans and an “instant gratification” culture making it more difficult for people to listen to lengthy pieces. " (Hence the film music on Radio 3 ...)

In fact, I'd say that many of the generalisations which he made, I'd agree with. It's just what I see as the totally grotesque remedies he uses to tackle the 'difficulties' that are awful.

As for a Cbeebies approach, there has been a little series on the channel in which classical pieces are played (about 4 minutes of Boccherini, Holst, Tallis, Saint-Saëns etc) which inspire a sight-impaired little girl to tell an imaginative story as a voiceover. For the 0-6s, it's good that well-known pieces are entering their experience, albeit the amount of music scarcely reaches double figures in minutes per month (usually it's nothing at all). For older children it would 'teach' them that listening to music is a secondary activity, playing in the background.

However, CBBC, as far as I can see, contains 'everything children want to know about music' - as long as it isn't classical music. I am pondering writing to the Controller, Cheryl Taylor, to suggest that CBBC should build on what CBeebies has been doing by moving the level up a rung or two.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

put forward by the Controller

It's a point of view.
When our local music service created a teachers' orchestra to play to secondary school groups, the first concert was dedicated to film and TV music. It was a success, but there was a sufficiently wide spectrum of music to avoid any real accusation of dumbing down. There was even the insertion of Berlioz's "March to the Scaffold", and the concert ended with a substantial medley from "Lord of the Rings".
The format was developed, but only became blatantly populist when the baton was passed to someone else, who substituted the programme entirely with music of "ABBA" & "The Flintstones" quality, along with pop music with a hugely amplified middle-aged rock band.

[french frank]

It's a point of view.
When our local music service created a teachers' orchestra to play to secondary school groups, the first concert was dedicated to film and TV music. It was a success ...

Indeed. This is somewhat moving from The Choir, but one of the churches in Bristol hosts a (fundraising) 'Glyndebourne picnic' style evening with perfomers from WNO. The really prolonged applause comes when they sing familiar songs from the musicals rather than dramatic arias. But that's because it's a general audience, not an audience for whom Glyndebourne = 'opera', rather than 'picnic'.

And Radio 3's case (I think) is that they must do everything they can to entertain and appeal to a new general audience, moreso than to inform a new general audience. The Telegraph article linked to above shows that their belief is that if people are attracted to Radio 3 for Late Junction/jazz/world music they will be bound to hear some classical and start listening to that too. I'd wager that far more people take what they like of the non-classical music and then whizz over to some other station where they'll find something else to their taste.

In which case the R3 strategy is a sledgehammer to crack a nut in terms of quantity of programming v. converts, while the sledgehammer smashes those who are already dedicated classical lovers.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In which case the R3 strategy is a sledgehammer to crack a nut in terms of quantity of programming v. converts, while the sledgehammer smashes those who are already dedicated classical lovers.

I wish you were wrong, but you're right. It happens more and more.

[hmvman]

I wonder if there is anyway of finding out whether The Choir, in its new format, has attracted a huge new listenership? There has undoubtedly been a big increase in 'the community choir' phenomenon. In other words, people who have not sung in choirs before and probably don't read music find pleasure in singing together, often under the leadership of hearty and enthusing individuals. This can only be a good thing whether it's inspired by the Gareth Malone tendency, suggested health benefits, or social reasons. The question is, are THEY tuning into The Choir on Sundays? I've asked a few and they're not even aware of the programme's existence....but that's not a scientific survey. How do we find out?

That would be people like me. I joined a community choir here in York nearly five years ago and it was the first time I'd done any singing since school days. We have a very enthusiastic and inspirational Music Director and we now sing often quite challenging pieces, some in a foreign language.

I've never been a regular listener to The Choir and I only know one or two others in our choir who are. One of them sometimes lets me know about something he's heard on the programme that he's found interesting and then I'll go to the Listen Again/iPlayer to seek out that piece.

[ardcarp]

it was the first time I'd done any singing since school days.

Great that you had some singing in your schooldays, hmvman. Loads of kids don't get any nowadays. The community choir near where I live (a rural area) flourishes, and most members like you did singing as kids (school or church choir). They have had families/jobs and most have not sung since...and now are rediscovering the pleasures.

Going back to the dumbing down of R3's The Choir (and much else) I was struck by how differently listeners are addressed by R4 programmes. For instance, Matthew Paris's Great Lives was about Arnold Bennett. Presenter and guests did not talk down to the audience at all, e.g. thing such as belle epoque and The Bloomsbury Group (who hated Bennett) did not have to be avoided or laboriously explained.

Is R4's listenership different from or more sophisticated than [the presumed] R3's ?

Or is it bel epoque? Clearly, I'm only fit for R3....

[Don Petter]

Epoques on Radio Three!

'

Going back to the dumbing down of R3's The Choir (and much else) I was struck by how differently listeners are addressed by R4 programmes. For instance, Matthew Paris's Great Lives was about Arnold Bennett. Presenter and guests did not talk down to the audience at all, e.g. thing such as belle epoque and The Bloomsbury Group (who hated Bennett) did not have to be avoided or laboriously explained.

Is R4's listenership different from or more sophisticated than [the presumed] R3's ?

Excellent point!

[HARRIET HAVARD]

Bright Presenter? I must have missed something.

[ahinton]

Or is it bel epoque? Clearly, I'm only fit for R3....

Belly pork, surely?

No, you were correct first time except that the first letter of the second word carries an acute accent, i.e. Belle Époque (although even that doesn't always apply these days given that accents are often omitted from capital letters).

[ardcarp]

Not clever enough to do accents on here. [No please don't tell me how, anyone.]

[vinteuil]

Not clever enough to do accents on here. [No please don't tell me how, anyone.]

äî wôûldn't drêàm öf hëlpîng ænyœnè whô dïdn't wânt tô bé hèlpëd...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[hmvman]

Great that you had some singing in your schooldays, hmvman. Loads of kids don't get any nowadays. The community choir near where I live (a rural area) flourishes, and most members like you did singing as kids (school or church choir). They have had families/jobs and most have not sung since...and now are rediscovering the pleasures.

Yes, ardcarp, I realise now how lucky we were in our schooldays. When I was at primary school the Headmaster played classical music to us during morning assemblies as well as at other times: we had maypole dancing and the May Queen ceremony on the 1st of May and Handel's Water Music (I think the Harty suite arrangement) was always played. This was in the 1960s.

[DracoM]

Bloomin' Heck!

Dylan Thomas 'live event'.

Apart from the final Julian Phillips piece, no music segment either live or on CD, lasted longer than 8 mins, and most were 5 mins or less.
And that final Julian Phillips setting of 'Fern Hill' did a real disservice to that valiant WNO junior ensemble who try though they undoubtedly did frankly could make nothing of its very dull, wafty emptiness. Crikey. What a turn-off. Those young singers had huge energy, sense of fun/drama and gave the Llama stuff real biff, so that to hear them floundering around in the Phillips was very upsetting.

Sorry, but this afternoon's The Choir truly distressed me. The potential in Dylan Thomas's poetry is enormous, but the settings we heard, including the Corigliano, were uniformly appalling.


Gabbled ENDLESS, ENDLESS bluddy trails between every tiny segment, head-against wall beatings. They very successfully destroyed the continuity, took us out of the 'moment'. You just do NOT trail like that at a LIVE event.

[Frances_iom]

just accept that R3 is dead - with some luck it may just survive above the level of' R2 for the over 50s' with the occasional intelligent 15mins thrown in to appear to meet the useless Trust's current standards but commercialisation must happen soon - pity about the orchestras but they can join ENO with their musicals and as backing for B-films - no point in looking to Europe either as the Tories want the UK (or rather England) to be rather like the Phillipines a US protectorate in all but name.