The Choir - Last straw

[Gabriel Jackson]

The hostility, as you might have realised, is to the programme format. It is irrelevant whether 'some listeners like it' because 'some listeners' will always like everything that's served up. The point, on which you have no opinion, is whether the programme really needs to be dumbed down into populist pap or not? whether there is still an intelligent, knowledgeable audience which is interested in the M-U-S-I-C for its own sake without needing their 5 minutes of fame tweeting in decribing their choir or their #faveconductor..

The size of the audience is not the issue for Radio 3. Quoting an ex-BBC Chairman and a current Radio 3 Controller:

"In judging the success of other services, ratings may simply be misleading. If Radio 3's ratings suddenly shot up then something would clearly very seriously have gone wrong." (Michael Grade)

"A recent director general expressed dismay when I told him that figures for our breakfast show had gone up." (Roger Wright)

But, in any case, for the reasons I have given, I do not 'believe' the figure of 20% can be anything other than a, not uncommon, Radio 3 distortion intended to mislead. But you have no doubts.

I am aware that there is hostility to the programme! As I've already said, Ardcarp posed the question "I wonder if there is anyway of finding out whether The Choir, in its new format, has attracted a huge new listenership?" and I responded with the information that there had been a 20 percent increase (a figure which you described as "huge"). That is all. You do not believe this, which is fine (and you have had the good grace not to accuse me of lying, or trying to curry favour...). I do believe it, as you say.

[Gabriel Jackson]

The main admirers of the group seem to be Radio 3, rather than the audience.

Really? They have they detractors of course, several of them here, but the enthusiastic capacity audiences at their London concerts, and the standing ovations I have witnessed in Scandinavia, would suggest that they do have admirers. And of course we don't know the opinions of those listeners who don't take to the internet to say how much they hated this or that concert.

They appear to be a collection of fine singers who can sight-sing impeccably, but rehearse only as a last resort and never really listen to one another. I use the word "appear" because I don't know anything at all about the way they are run.

In what way do they appear to rehearse as a last resort, or never really listen to each other? (You've already implicitly acknowledged that this isn't actually true.)

It's just that other professional choirs knock spots off them.

In what way?

I'm not persuaded by your reasoned argument, as I doubt you would be by anything I say.

[DracoM]

I think the problem for the BBC Singers is that a goodly number of very distinguished pro ensembles have emerged who sing many different repertoires in a style that seems to have gained esteem.

The BBC Singers sound / style by and large comes across as ...well, just old-fashioned, with quite full-on vibrato, somewhat striving, competitive style among the men which makes them, as others have said, sound like a group of soloists jostling for attention.

That is not to infer in any way they are not consummate musicians, formidable sight-readers, and no-one has suggested otherwise, but listeners now have such abundant choice, and the BBC Singers seem parked in a time-warp / cul-de-sac. No doubt some / all sing with other ensembles, maybe employ very different techniques with those ensembles, but when they come back together, they adopt a style that feels a bit yesterday. Only IMO. of course.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Getting back to The Choir's sick state, I wonder how long it will be before Choral Evensong is replaced by a happy clappy amateur church music group singing so-called "worship songs".

[Honoured Guest]

Good idea, Ena. Choral Evensong would benefit from being transformed into a representative picture of music in religion in the UK today.

[W.Kearns]

Please don't suggest it, EA - not even in fun.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please don't suggest it, EA - not even in fun.

Sorry, you're right. There'll always be some idiot who will think it's a good idea.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I think the problem for the BBC Singers is that a goodly number of very distinguished pro ensembles have emerged who sing many different repertoires in a style that seems to have gained esteem.

Indeed there are many professional groups that have a performing style and a soundworld that appeals to audiences (though, as I said earlier, plenty of people admire and like the work of the BBC Singers too). But most of those groups have a fairly small repertoire niche (or they don't do concerts). The BBC Singers sing a far wider range of repertoire than any other group in this country (very often in the same programme). A sound that is thought appropriate in some music isn't necessarily thought appropriate in other music. Would anyone want to hear The Tallis Scholars, for example, in German Romantic music? I don't believe that there is only one way to sing music, so I welcome the diversity of ensembles that we are able to hear, and I don't think the existence (and success, perhaps) of one particular group somehow invalidates, or makes pointless, the work of another.

The BBC Singers sound / style by and large comes across as ...well, just old-fashioned,

This acknowledges that perfoming style and (choral) sound is a matter of fashion, which I would agree with. And fashions in such things change, as we know.

with quite full-on vibrato,

I don't understand why "vibrato" has become such a dirty word (for all that you qualified it with "full-on"). For a lot of people, I know, a very straight, "non-vibrato" sound is what they want to hear (particularly from the women) but to my mind this can be very limiting. You cannot sing really quietly, or really loudly, if you sing like that, and it can be very inflexible and lacking in coloristic variety. And when the women are expected to sing like this but the men aren't (which is quite common) a curious pyramid effect results, where there is a mismatch between the colour, intensity and (often) volume,of the male and female voices. The Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir is a good example of this pyramid effect, and there are others closer to home.

somewhat striving, competitive style among the men which makes them, as others have said, sound like a group of soloists jostling for attention.

I would call this proper singing. Yes, it can be quite a big sound at times (as is the case with the sopranos and altos) but I personally find that exciting. There is nothing quite like a BBC Singers triple forte, and I mean that in a good way! In my experience, the BBC Singers are capable of and/or willing to embrace a far wider range of colour and dynamic than any other group of my acquaintance.

That is not to infer in any way they are not consummate musicians, formidable sight-readers, and no-one has suggested otherwise,

Actually, they have, frequently.

but listeners now have such abundant choice, and the BBC Singers seem parked in a time-warp / cul-de-sac.

Actually, you may find them less of an anomaly than you think. There is far more commonality of sound and approach between the BBC Singers and many European radio choirs - the RIAS-Kammerchor, or the Swedish Radio Choir, or the SWR VokalEnsemble Stuttgart, for example - than there is between those last-named groups and the Tallis Scholars, or Ensemble Ars Nova.

No doubt some / all sing with other ensembles, maybe employ very different techniques with those ensembles, but when they come back together, they adopt a style that feels a bit yesterday. Only IMO. of course.

Indeed, as you say, many members of the BBC Singers do also sing with The Tallis Scholars, Exaudi, The Sixteen, Ghent Collegium Vocale etc. What is it you think those individual singers do differently, or are asked to differently, when they are rehearsing with the other BBC Singers in Maida Vale? I am genuinely interested to know what you think happens.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Indeed, as you say, many members of the BBC Singers do also sing with The Tallis Scholars, Exaudi, The Sixteen, Ghent Collegium Vocale etc. What is it you think those individual singers do differently, or are asked to differently, when they are rehearsing with the other BBC Singers in Maida Vale? I am genuinely interested to know what you think happens.

If this is the case, I too am puzzled, for some of those are among the choirs I hinted at earlier. It may be a cultural thing within the group, or it may be simply a lack of rehearsal time as a group. But it has been this way for as long as I can remember; and this goes back to the 1960s.

[Pulcinella]

I happen not to like Maria Callas's voice, though I admire her portrayal of Tosca.
She too will have sung to capacity audiences and received standing ovations.
Does this say anything other than different people like (enjoy/accept) different things?

I would take great exception to someone telling me that I SHOULD like a particular performance or style; I can make my own mind up about that.
Equally, I would hope that I would never tell anyone that they SHOULDN'T like a particular performance or style; they too can make their own mind up.
But what I MIGHT do is choose a different performance, and explain (possibly even by reasoned argument) why I find it preferable.
Isn't that what Building a Library does?

[DracoM]

<< a very straight, "non-vibrato" sound is what they want to hear (particularly from the women) but to my mind this can be very limiting. You cannot sing really quietly, or really loudly, if you sing like that >>

OK, well - and it is perhaps only a very tiny point barely worth attention - my first inclination is to say that the statement quoted above is demonstrable cobblers. Girls / boys / women singers do both every day of the week on and off record.

I have also begun to wonder idly over years of listening if maybe when the BBC Singers have new / different conductors, it is THEY rather than the conductor who are in charge. House style quietly asserts itself? After all a conductor who appears with them or any ensemble relatively irregularly simply cannot do much about shaping sound to any radical degree - if of course he/she thinks that is necessary. It begs the question that if a conductor DOES think the BBCS should be radically changed maybe they never get asked in the first place?? Conductors move on like ships in the night, but the singers are the core who remain. Just a thought.

Friend who works in a major orchestral ensemble once told me that the orchestra she plays in begins to make up its collective mind in about the time it takes the incomer to walk from door to podium, and settles on an opinion by the end the first ten bars of a rehearsal, and that's it. After that, just watch the stick and forget the flim-flam. If you are a hardened pro, it must be very tempting to just think 'blah-blah-blah - yeah, yeah, just get on with it, mate, we've got schedules to keep to'.

FWIW.

[Gabriel Jackson]

If this is the case, I too am puzzled, for some of those are among the choirs I hinted at earlier. It may be a cultural thing within the group, or it may be simply a lack of rehearsal time as a group. But it has been this way for as long as I can remember; and this goes back to the 1960s.

What are you talking about? None of those groups existed in the 1960s.

[DracoM]

Instead of dancing to GJ's tune, might it be nice for us to get back to The Choir? Yes, we're all guilty.................

[Tony Halstead]

What are you talking about? None of those groups existed in the 1960s

When was / were the BBC Singers founded?

[DracoM]

1924.