Byrd migration

[french frank]

if you are historically attuned [...]

Isn't that the point? Arguably, in 2014 one isn't [shouldn't be?] listening to any religious service from the 'historical' point of view but from the spiritual (and musical).

[Despina dello Stagno]

Are you trying to rekindle such bigotry in the first half of the 21st?

IMV

THAT Byrd piece is as inappropriate, if you are historically attuned, in an establishment building as the Sex-Pisols' "God save the queen" would be at a coronation or jubilee celebration, or as Channel 4's alternative Queen's Speech is on Christmas Day.

is arrant nonsense, as is your 'original point'.

No

I was merely attempting a theoretical rebuttal of the statement that the pairing would be "nice". However, I have now become more attuned to the atmosphere on here and will consequently sod off permanently.
Have a cosy life.

[jean]

My original point, and it has been garbled over the thread, was that THAT Byrd piece is as inappropriate, if you are historically attuned, in an establishment building as the Sex-Pisols' "God save the queen" would be at a coronation or jubilee celebration, or as Channel 4's alternative Queen's Speech is on Christmas Day.

I don't think your point was garbled, actually.

Taken seriously, your objection to Quomodo cantabimus in an Anglican context (whatever that means these days) should be equally directed at other pieces that subversively equate the Babylonian captivity with the situation of Catholics in post-Reformation England. But you didn't comment when that point was made.

If a text is taken ironically, we can if we choose subvert the irony and take it at face value. We could even do that with your chosen example of the Sex Pistols' "God save the queen" if we thought it was a good enough piece of music to deserve such treatment.

[jean]

Well, they told us the story at the beginning of the service, so we have no excuse for not being historically attuned.

So we can sing/listen to the pieces in the full knowledge of what they meant to those who wrote them, and we can even mentally apologise to them for their sufferings as we do so.

[Vox Humana]

SPOILER: PROLIXITY AHEAD

I would have felt less spoiled if you had been more accurate. If you want to teach grandmother to suck eggs, please at least make sure they are fresh.

The Peterhouse partbooks should be treated with caution. It is not certain that they represent choir usage at Peterhouse (the earliest are thought to come from Canterbury). They cover a period of 130 years

I am well aware of the ground covered by the Perne Library books. If you read my post you will see that I carefully referred to "a" set of partbooks, not all of them.

The earliest items are a similar and rival source to the Eton choir book: the last items reflect Caroline taste. I have seen them online in the past, but cannot now find them. DIAMM would be a likely candidate, but doesn't appear to offer them.

Yes it does.

The Henrician partbooks have nothing to do with the later sets. They just happen to live in the same library. I wouldn't call the music in the Henrician set very similar to the Eton Choirbook music at all, except in the superficial sense that it is still florid rather than in the more cogent, imitative, style of the mid century and subsequently. It is the floridness of the Taverner/Aston generation, which is a somewhat different style. The only similarity between these sources is that they are both important collections representing their periods, containing many items that are unknown elsewhere.

What is browseable on DIAMM is the Dow partbooks, another of the great primary sources for this period.

Although, as you may be aware, this is a secular source, not a liturgical one (we were discussing Latin in a liturgical context). It is not very authoritative either (though, admittedly, it is very pretty and Dow carries out his modifications with impeccable taste).

There is no Child in Latin in the Peterhouse partbooks.

Yes there is. MSS 44, 42, 35, 37, 45, 43, 36, sigs K6, K5b, H1b, F12, (f.)71, N3b, G5a: "A morning service in Lattin made for the Right wor[shipfu]ll Dr. Cosin by mr Child"

Ramsey wrote one (atypical) Latin piece, Loosemore none.

In the same partbooks (the so-called "latter" set of Caroline books) there are two Latin litanies by Loosemore. There is Latin litany by Ramsey there, along with two morning services in Latin by him. The so-called "former" set has a second Latin litany by Ramsey.

Barnard should also be treated with caution. It was first printed in 1641, and was allegedly the sourcebook for the post-restoration repertoire. But the paucity of copies (nowhere has a complete set, and most partbooks have single extant examples) suggest that it cannot have been used widely.

Or could the sets have been used so extensively that they fell apart and were thrown away? (Idle query - this isn't my period.)

It is a scandal that his works remain pretty well ignored and undisseminated.

I agree with that.

[Despina dello Stagno]

WITH ONE BOUND JACK WAS FREE

I would have felt less spoiled if you had been more accurate. If you want to teach grandmother to suck eggs, please at least make sure they are fresh.....I am well aware of the ground covered by the Perne Library books. If you read my post you will see that I carefully referred to "a" set of partbooks, not all of them....The Henrician partbooks have nothing to do with the later sets. They just happen to live in the same library. I wouldn't call the music in the Henrician set very similar to the Eton Choirbook music at all, except in the superficial sense that it is still florid rather than in the more cogent, imitative, style of the mid century and subsequently. It is the floridness of the Taverner/Aston generation, which is a somewhat different style. The only similarity between these sources is that they are both important collections representing their periods, containing many items that are unknown elsewhere.

I am sorry if you feel patronised; that was not the intention. I was trying to cover a lot of ground yet keep it accessible to the general reader. There are probably few here who are au fait with the contents of those books.
As indeed, clearly, I am not.:

Yes there is. MSS 44, 42, 35, 37, 45, 43, 36, sigs K6, K5b, H1b, F12, (f.)71, N3b, G5a: "A morning service in Lattin made for the Right wor[shipfu]ll Dr. Cosin by mr Child"...In the same partbooks (the so-called "latter" set of Caroline books) there are two Latin litanies by Loosemore. There is Latin litany by Ramsey there, along with two morning services in Latin by him. The so-called "former" set has a second Latin litany by Ramsey.

Yes. My poor scholarship entirely. Unable to penetrate DIAMM (with me, the site sometimes creaks) I used a cursory glance at RISM, which proved inadequate to the task. Thank you for the exhaustive references to the Child. I shall regard them as a useful tool as well as a skewer!

Or could the sets have been used so extensively that they fell apart and were thrown away? (Idle query - this isn't my period.)

Dunno, its a puzzle. Boyce's collection, a century later, had a first edition of, I think, 450, and I should estimate that the greater moiety survive. However that was issued in score and much of the contents were then handwritten into partbooks, making wear and tear less likely

I agree with that.

Is there a nascent George Jeffreys society on the board?

I should like also to make a more general point about this thread (and all the gall is contained here) that my original posting was not inspired by malice, but the result was that I was drawn into conflict on too many fronts to do any of them justice. I hope a line can be drawn here, and that I can continue to post in future. My personal history is such that I can trace some of my thinking back, in one generation, to pre-abdication crisis divines. Sometimes, unthinkingly, that upbringing asserts itself in unlikely places.

[Despina dello Stagno]

Despina, are you going to find some arcane reason, every week, why a poor DoM has failed miserably in his choice of music for CE?

There's actually no rules about what music you stick in provided you've got the basic outline. It doesn't have to be 'themed', worry overmuch about the 39 Articles or be ethnically pure.

I think Decantor has (as always) put it rather well...and no we don't want to migrate to a new thread every time you go off on a flight of fancy. You are at liberty to start as many threads as you like..

I find it a bit rich that on the strength of two threads I am considered a pariah. You have (completely incorrectly) predicted the point that I wished to develop and dismissed it as a flight of fancy, sight unseen. I never had the Latin (as I mentioned before). Wot does "de gustibus non est disputandum" mean? Can it be active and passive?

[mangerton]

I find it a bit rich that on the strength of two threads I am considered a pariah. You have (completely incorrectly) predicted the point that I wished to develop and dismissed it as a flight of fancy, sight unseen. I never had the Latin (as I mentioned before). Wot does "de gustibus non est disputandum" mean? Can it be active and passive?

You and Peter Cook.

As so often, GIYF To save you looking it up, it means "In matters of taste, there can be no dispute", or more loosely, "One man's meat is another man's poison".

[Despina dello Stagno]

Post 37 is a response to post 9 on the CE Wells Cathedral thread.
Having used the reply with quote button there, I have absolutely know idea how or why it has appeared here.

Post 38 correctly follows post 37. Apologies to Mangerton for leaving a beartrap into which anyone might stumble.

[mangerton]

Post 37 is a response to post 9 on the CE Wells Cathedral thread.
Having used the reply with quote button there, I have absolutely know idea how or why it has appeared here.

Post 38 correctly follows post 37. Apologies to Mangerton for leaving a beartrap into which anyone might stumble.

Oh, not at all. In laqueum ursi non cecidi.

There are more things in heaven and earth, DdS, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.