New Beethoven Catalogue announced for November 1st 2014

[Guest]

First published in 1955 (Kinsky/Halm), with an additional volume in 1978 (Dorfmüller), and announced in 1976, after 59 years it's there: the new Beethoven Verzeichnis (Dorfmüller-Gertsch-Ronge), again to be published by Henle Verlag in Munich in collaboration with the Beethovenhaus in Bonn.

Two volumes (1800 pages; i.e. more than 1000 more than in 1955 ), not only with 46 newly catalogued works, but also with references to the sketches, the opera and stage music plans, the first prints, the correspondence (including the Conversation booklets), the publishers and the dedicatees.

A bit expensive (450 euros approx), but with the now completed edition of all Beethoven's letters (8 vols) and the completed edition of all the conversation booklets (11 vols), and a Neue Beethoven Ausgabe of all his works (including the study works for Haydn, Albrechtsberger and Salieri) also nearing completion, indispensable I'm afraid for Beethoven-addicts.

******

The new edition of the Mozart Köchel-Verzeichnis will take some more time, but is nearing completion as well. This will see a new approach of the numbering and identification of fragments without affecting the long serving and well-established KV-numbering itself.

[Tevot]

Can we get in on Kindle ?

Or perhaps the Daily Mail will serialise it

[Roehre]

Can we get in on Kindle ?

Or perhaps the Daily Mail will serialise it

The complete letters are available on a CD-ROM, so who knows?

I always loved to see hell being frozen over

[amateur51]

The complete letters are available on a CD-ROM, so who knows?

I always loved to see hell being frozen over

Have you been to Skegness, Roehre?

"it's so bracing!"

[EdgeleyRob]

First published in 1955 (Kinsky/Halm), with an additional volume in 1978 (Dorfmüller), and announced in 1976, after 59 years it's there: the new Beethoven Verzeichnis (Dorfmüller-Gertsch-Ronge), again to be published by Henle Verlag in Munich in collaboration with the Beethovenhaus in Bonn.

Two volumes (1800 pages; i.e. more than 1000 more than in 1955 ), not only with 46 newly catalogued works, but also with references to the sketches, the opera and stage music plans, the first prints, the correspondence (including the Conversation booklets), the publishers and the dedicatees.

A bit expensive (450 euros approx), but with the now completed edition of all Beethoven's letters (8 vols) and the completed edition of all the conversation booklets (11 vols), and a Neue Beethoven Ausgabe of all his works (including the study works for Haydn, Albrechtsberger and Salieri) also nearing completion, indispensable I'm afraid for Beethoven-addicts.

******

The new edition of the Mozart Köchel-Verzeichnis will take some more time, but is nearing completion as well. This will see a new approach of the numbering and identification of fragments without affecting the long serving and well-established KV-numbering itself.

Fascinating,thanks Roehre.
A bit of light reading for you.
When you say 46 newly catalogued works,what does that mean,obviously not newly discovered pieces so why are they not already listed,sorry,being a numpty.

[Roehre]

Fascinating,thanks Roehre.
A bit of light reading for you.
When you say 46 newly catalogued works,what does that mean,obviously not newly discovered pieces so why are they not already listed,sorry,being a numpty.

23 of these were not listed at all because the point of departure in the "old" Kinsky-Halm was: a work must be finished to be listed. Hence we have the Hess catalogue from 1957, listing the works which for one reason o another were not listed in the Kinsky/Halm, e.g. the Romanza cantabile, which is mentioned (under WoO 37, the trio for flute, basson and piano) ), but not listed. The same is the case with the Festas Feuer opera-fragment (mentioned under Fidelio, but not listed)

23 others are completed works which were unknown in 1955, like the piano trio in E-flat Hess 48.
There are however works which are not listed in either Kinsky/Halm, Hess or even Biamonti (who gave approximately a number to every note known to him which was dotted down by Beethoven), like the string quintet movement in b from 1817 which emerged in 2005 in a complete manuscript score (in a for Beethoven unusually very legible handwriting, hence not a sketch).
Among the sketches for the Missa solemnis, partly concurrent with those for e.g. the bagatelles opus 119, complete other Bagatelles have been found - now listed.
Hence the importance of the in the new catalogue now included relation between sketches (many -but not all of them- defined and described by Hans Schmidt in the Beethoven Jahrbuch 1970, abbreviated SV) and works.

[EdgeleyRob]

Roehre,as ever,thank you for taking the time and trouble.
I find this subject really fascinating.
I've been listening to a lot of Haydn lately,so I decided to look up Hoboken.
Now under this system I understand the music to be arranged by form of work rather than chronologically.
The string quartets are generally referred to by Opus number.
Does every Haydn work also have Opus as well as Hoboken numbers ?

When you've answered that we'll talk about Otto Erich Deutsch's catalogue of Franz Schubert's music.

[Roehre]

Roehre,as ever,thank you for taking the time and trouble.
I find this subject really fascinating.
I've been listening to a lot of Haydn lately,so I decided to look up Hoboken.
Now under this system I understand the music to be arranged by form of work rather than chronologically.
The string quartets are generally referred to by Opus number.
Does every Haydn work also have Opus as well as Hoboken numbers ?

When you've answered that we'll talk about Otto Erich Deutsch's catalogue of Franz Schubert's music.

Yes, every Haydn opus number has got a Hoboken number.
The Hoboken catalogue has one big and in my opinion a completely unnecessary flaw: where Haydn wrote more than one version of a work, it is rather difficult to find/retrieve these. Try to find e.g. the versions of the 7 Letze Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze: string quartet (opus 51, Hob.III:50-56), the piano version( no Hoboken number AFAIK), the orchestral version (Hob.XX:1a) and the orchestral version with choir/oratorio (Hob.XX:2) ....

The chronology is disputable too, compare the Hoboken-numbering Hob.1:1-108 with Robin Landon's one.
Later additions -especially the wind divertimentos- are numbered according to their key, a device adopted from other catalogues, e.g the Telemann Werke Verzeichnis TWV.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, every Haydn opus number has got a Hoboken number.

But not necessarily vice versa; only the works Haydn had published have Opus numbers (and, IIRC, not all of those) - there are many works in the Hoboken catalogue that don't have Opus numbers because they weren't published. Not because they weren't considered good enough by publishers, but because that way Haydn could maintain control over the performance (and revenue) from his own work. Mozart had the same approach.

[Roehre]

But not necessarily vice versa; only the works Haydn had published have Opus numbers (and, IIRC, not all of those) - there are many works in the Hoboken catalogue that don't have Opus numbers because they weren't published. Not because they weren't considered good enough by publishers, but because that way Haydn could maintain control over the performance (and revenue) from his own work. Mozart had the same approach.

At this moment there are some 1600 works known beyond doubt to be Haydn's and some 400 possibly Haydn's and another nearly 1000 not being his but published under his name. The highest opus number of Haydn's works is 103, and these are mainly string quartets (and all of them but one [opus 42] are sets of 3 or 6 quartets).

whether works were published during Haydn's lifetime (and with his knowledge and consent !) is hardly recorded in terms of opus numbers. Haydn-symphonies were published without opus numers, piano trios ditto, but IIRC all string quartets have received one.
Mozart published works basically without opus numbers (there are two sets opus 1 - 4), the first series real juvenilia, the second series starting with the violin sonata KV279.
Beethoven is a nice case for publishing works with as well as without opus numbers. None of his piano variations upto opus 34 and 35 carry one. Ditto for any of the sets of dances for the Redoutenball 1795 and '96. The military marches of 1810 (including the very popular Yorck'scher Marsch) haven't an opus number, nor a Gratulationsmenuet published in 1822.
With the exception of opus 108 none of the numerous folksong arrangements got an opus number

An interesting case is the string quartet arrangement after the sonata opus 14/1. It hasn't got an independent opus number. But an arrangement of the septet opus 20 was published (on Beethoven's request!) as opus 38.
.
The sextet opus 81 [now opus 81b] was published with an opusnumber against Beethoven's wishes. It also caused a problem as there was already a work published as opus 81, the Sonata "Les Adieux". That one became now opus 81a.

[EdgeleyRob]

Thanks guys.
Mind boggling but fascinating subject this,and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

Otto Erich Deutsch and his catalogue of Schubert's music.
This seemed a bit more straightforward,then I read stuff like.....'Neue Schubert-Ausgabe'....eighty-three proposed volumes....sixty-six have so far been issued. Publication of all volumes has been tentatively scheduled to conclude in 2016.....list of works that have yet to receive a Deutsch number