An apology to Sir Colin

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  • Mario
    Full Member
    • Aug 2020
    • 568

    An apology to Sir Colin

    Posters from the old BBC messageboards will know of my Beethoven fanaticism.

    Although I’ve always admired Colin Davis’s meticulous following of the score, his Beethoven rarely set me alight. In particular, his LvB 5 I found rather uninspired. Worse, I never understood the final “late” entry of the very last chord on the timpani, on the Philips label with the BBC Phil.

    Well, in the “Terrific Live Schubert” thread, in Message 12, JLW suggests seeing the short video with Harnoncourt and the COE. And, would you believe it, he too emphasises the final “late” ff trill on the timpani.

    A work I know so well? Really? Pah! I took it for granted that the final bar is an ff roll on the timpani. But I was wrong! The final bar is not a semibreve on C with a fermata (at least not in my Eulenburg edition), but a tremolo minim followed by a minim trill with a fermata (sorry, don’t know how to upload manuscript - I’d be grateful if someone with a score can upload the very last bar – it would help emphasise what Beethoven was asking for).

    So THAT’s what Sir Colin Davis and the BBC Phil were emphasising, together with Nicolaus Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe.

    I’ve checked all my versions of the 5th (only a disappointing 11 I’m afraid ☹, although I’ve heard many more both live and on radio). I'd prefer not to know how many recordings other posters have particularly, as that will only depress me further, although in my defence, we are severely limited here – for example, Qobuz is not available and neither is Spotify. But of the recordings that I do have, none makes the emphasis of the accent on the third beat, separating the two minims, no not Karajan, not Toscanini, not Furtwängler, not C Kleiber, not Zinman, but yes, now I discover, Harnoncourt and Colin Davis do.

    To be honest I’m not sure I like it, but then Beethoven specifically wrote 2 minims and not a semibreve – why? I’m not an expert at all, but I cannot think of a single other instance where the final timpani roll to bring a work to a satisfactory conclusion, is interrupted (literally maybe, not sonically) as it is here. Curiouser and curiouser…

    At any rate, I’m sorry Sir Colin for completely misjudging you (even though the rest of the performance leaves me a little cold).

    Mario
  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    #2
    Fascinating post Mario, thanks.... glad the video proved instructive...

    Comment

    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6819

      #3
      Originally posted by Auferstehen View Post
      Posters from the old BBC messageboards will know of my Beethoven fanaticism.

      Although I’ve always admired Colin Davis’s meticulous following of the score, his Beethoven rarely set me alight. In particular, his LvB 5 I found rather uninspired. Worse, I never understood the final “late” entry of the very last chord on the timpani, on the Philips label with the BBC Phil.

      Well, in the “Terrific Live Schubert” thread, in Message 12, JLW suggests seeing the short video with Harnoncourt and the COE. And, would you believe it, he too emphasises the final “late” ff trill on the timpani.

      A work I know so well? Really? Pah! I took it for granted that the final bar is an ff roll on the timpani. But I was wrong! The final bar is not a semibreve on C with a fermata (at least not in my Eulenburg edition), but a tremolo minim followed by a minim trill with a fermata (sorry, don’t know how to upload manuscript - I’d be grateful if someone with a score can upload the very last bar – it would help emphasise what Beethoven was asking for).

      So THAT’s what Sir Colin Davis and the BBC Phil were emphasising, together with Nicolaus Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe.

      I’ve checked all my versions of the 5th (only a disappointing 11 I’m afraid ☹, although I’ve heard many more both live and on radio). I'd prefer not to know how many recordings other posters have particularly, as that will only depress me further, although in my defence, we are severely limited here – for example, Qobuz is not available and neither is Spotify. But of the recordings that I do have, none makes the emphasis of the accent on the third beat, separating the two minims, no not Karajan, not Toscanini, not Furtwängler, not C Kleiber, not Zinman, but yes, now I discover, Harnoncourt and Colin Davis do.

      To be honest I’m not sure I like it, but then Beethoven specifically wrote 2 minims and not a semibreve – why? I’m not an expert at all, but I cannot think of a single other instance where the final timpani roll to bring a work to a satisfactory conclusion, is interrupted (literally maybe, not sonically) as it is here. Curiouser and curiouser…

      At any rate, I’m sorry Sir Colin for completely misjudging you (even though the rest of the performance leaves me a little cold).

      Mario
      I’ve found the relevant bar in the Eulenberg score but I can’t see a way of uploading a pic either ! You are right but one question - what it the difference on a timp between a tremolo and a trill - they strike me as pretty similar ? I guess the interruption is to create greater emphasis ?

      Comment

      • Ein Heldenleben
        Full Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 6819

        #4
        Just looked through the timp part - the player only gets two notes C and ,unsurprisingly, G . Getting pedal timps must have been like VE Day for them...mind you in Beethoven 5 it looks like quite easy to make a fearful hash of things.

        Comment

        • Pulcinella
          Host
          • Feb 2014
          • 10991

          #5
          Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
          I’ve found the relevant bar in the Eulenberg score but I can’t see a way of uploading a pic either ! You are right but one question - what it the difference on a timp between a tremolo and a trill - they strike me as pretty similar ? I guess the interruption is to create greater emphasis ?
          Another interesting feature of that final bar is that the trombones (only used in the last movement) play only on the first beat, with all other instruments (other than the timps) given a semibreve (marked with the fermata/pause). Extra emphasis just for the first beat, presumably.

          Comment

          • Ein Heldenleben
            Full Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 6819

            #6
            Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
            Another interesting feature of that final bar is that the trombones (only used in the last movement) play only on the first beat, with all other instruments (other than the timps) given a semibreve (marked with the fermata/pause). Extra emphasis just for the first beat, presumably.
            Even though Beethoven was deaf his sonic awareness amazes . I guess he realised the trombones would just drown the rest of the band out and that brass punch sounds more impressive with a crotchet stab.

            Comment

            • oddoneout
              Full Member
              • Nov 2015
              • 9222

              #7
              Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
              I’ve found the relevant bar in the Eulenberg score but I can’t see a way of uploading a pic either ! You are right but one question - what it the difference on a timp between a tremolo and a trill - they strike me as pretty similar ? I guess the interruption is to create greater emphasis ?
              A family member used to play timps but getting a response/thoughts would take too long for various reasons but googling came up with some interesting stuff, although not necessarily sufficiently specific to your question.
              Is a timpani roll notated with those tremolo-type lines through the stem or a trill? Or can it be either? What have you guys seen used for the most part? Oh also - I remember reading somewhere that you should generally end timpani rolls on the first beat of the next measure rather than on the las...

              https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Playing_Tec.../Timpani-Rolls this one does mention Beethoven and made me smile
              https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory...een_a_timpani/ this is more specific, and mentions a caveat about printers

              Comment

              • Mario
                Full Member
                • Aug 2020
                • 568

                #8
                Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                I’ve found the relevant bar in the Eulenberg score but I can’t see a way of uploading a pic either ! You are right but one question - what it the difference on a timp between a tremolo and a trill - they strike me as pretty similar ? I guess the interruption is to create greater emphasis ?
                Yes, I wondered this too, and I think you’re right on both counts.

                Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                Just looked through the timp part - the player only gets two notes C and ,unsurprisingly, G . Getting pedal timps must have been like VE Day for them...mind you in Beethoven 5 it looks like quite easy to make a fearful hash of things.
                I’m only at Music Theory Grade 5 currently, so haven’t really studied proper Common Practice techniques in the Classical and Romantic eras, but weren’t timpani usually tuned in the tonic and dominant of the key, hence, in C Maj, as you say, C & G?

                Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
                Another interesting feature of that final bar is that the trombones (only used in the last movement) play only on the first beat, with all other instruments (other than the timps) given a semibreve (marked with the fermata/pause). Extra emphasis just for the first beat, presumably.
                Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                Even though Beethoven was deaf his sonic awareness amazes . I guess he realised the trombones would just drown the rest of the band out and that brass punch sounds more impressive with a crotchet stab.
                I think you’re right regarding the trombones, but still I’m surprised. I can only recall two occasions in which Beethoven used the fff notation (Tchaikovsky used SIX in his Pathetique!). They occur once in the climax mid-way through 8/1, and in the shout, and I mean the shout of Omnipotens towards the start of the Gloria in the Missa Solemnis (at bar 185). I would’ve thought an fff a worthy conclusion to this monstrous work, including yes, a trombone semibreve.

                Sorry, but this work can never sound too loud.

                Mario
                Last edited by Mario; 08-12-20, 18:21.

                Comment

                • Mario
                  Full Member
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 568

                  #9
                  Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                  A family member used to play timps but getting a response/thoughts would take too long for various reasons but googling came up with some interesting stuff, although not necessarily sufficiently specific to your question.
                  Is a timpani roll notated with those tremolo-type lines through the stem or a trill? Or can it be either? What have you guys seen used for the most part? Oh also - I remember reading somewhere that you should generally end timpani rolls on the first beat of the next measure rather than on the las...

                  https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Playing_Tec.../Timpani-Rolls this one does mention Beethoven and made me smile
                  https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory...een_a_timpani/ this is more specific, and mentions a caveat about printers
                  Honestly, oddoneout, I find these additions to both my knowledge and enjoyment of music utterly indispensable. Very many thanks,

                  Mario

                  Enough high-brow stuff. Time to prepare for Man Utd...

                  Comment

                  • jayne lee wilson
                    Banned
                    • Jul 2011
                    • 10711

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Auferstehen View Post
                    Honestly, oddoneout, I find these additions to both my knowledge and enjoyment of music utterly indispensable. Very many thanks,

                    Mario

                    Enough high-brow stuff. Time to prepare for Man Utd...
                    Fate is at your door in that one...!

                    Comment

                    • Ein Heldenleben
                      Full Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 6819

                      #11
                      Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                      Fate is at your door in that one...!
                      3-1 ?

                      Comment

                      • jayne lee wilson
                        Banned
                        • Jul 2011
                        • 10711

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                        3-1 ?
                        A Liverpool supporter couldn't possibly comment further.....

                        Comment

                        • Ein Heldenleben
                          Full Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 6819

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Auferstehen View Post
                          Yes, I wondered this too, and I think you’re right on both counts.



                          I’m only at Music Theory Grade 5 currently, so haven’t really studied proper Common Practice techniques in the Classical and Romantic eras, but weren’t timpani usually tuned in the tonic and dominant of the key, hence, in C Maj, as you say, C & G?





                          I think you’re right regarding the trombones, but still I’m surprised. I can only recall two occasions in which Beethoven used the fff notation (Tchaikovsky used SIX in his Pathetique!). They occur once in the climax mid-way through 8/1, and in the shout, and I mean the shout of Omnipotens towards the start of the Gloria in the Missa Solemnis (at bar 185). I would’ve thought an fff a worthy conclusion to this monstrous work, including yes, a trombone semibreve.

                          Sorry, but this work can never sound too loud.

                          Mario
                          Yes tonic dominant would be the obvious selection . In the A flat slow movt the timps play during the C major section only

                          Comment

                          • Mario
                            Full Member
                            • Aug 2020
                            • 568

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                            Fate is at your door in that one...!


                            As a 'pool fan, wish us luck, maybe?

                            Comment

                            • jayne lee wilson
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 10711

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Auferstehen View Post


                              As a 'pool fan, wish us luck, maybe?
                              Get outta here! But the way RBL and United currently play, I don't think it will be dull.....

                              Comment

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