RVW - "A London Symphony"

[BBMmk2]

Many thanks indeed for your very informative posts! Always a very interesting read.

[Lat-Literal]

Spot on, Lat. But there's something else about the London - it was his first symphony. Oh, I know he called the Sea a symphony, but he hardly meant it - it's a very fine choral work. The progrmme notes for the first performance said that the word 'symphony' referred to the way RVW had compiled the text. And that's important - having a text provides a structure without your having to think very much about it. I've posted before that neither RVW nor Butterworth thought of the London as anything but RVW's first symphony. RVW's own record of his reaction to George's "You know - you ought to write a symphony" was "I replied that I never had and never intended to". (That's from a 1918 letter, but he repeated it in print in 1934.) George's reaction to the first performance (after writing a long critique) was "In the meantime - here's to Sym. No. 2!" - clearly meaning "here's to the next one!" (and George knew the Sea well - he'd been at the first performance in Leeds). It was only in 1956 that RVW gave into his publisher's demands and gave No. 8 a number - and by that time Boult had recorded 7 'symphonies' anyway.

I think the thing was that the London was RVW's first large-scale orchestral piece of any sort. He had no text to provide a skeleton, and to keep the listener's attention for almost an hour is not easy. No wonder RVW had 'cold feet' (at least a bit). I think Butterworth, Bax, & co. provided a sort of moral support for which we all should be grateful.

From the Butterworth perspective, I'm reminded of a quote from Adrian Boult in the introduction to the 1948 reprint of the Memorial Volume that Sir Alexander had privately printed in 1918: "There are probably few people living now who remember that quiet but impressive figure who was in the centre of London music". In many ways he was a sort of catalyst for others.

Some further random and, in the main, rather lightweight thoughts.

I live in a home which would have the number two if it wasn't for the fact that there is no home in my road that is number one. I first heard RVW2 in York. Butterworth was in some ways a composer from York, albeit he was born in Paddington. There is, though, an obvious geographical connection between RVW and Butterworth. That is Gloucestershire, given Butterworth's grandfather's role there. That feels right in view of the folk song collecting. We may these days somewhat miss the sheer radicalism of that approach in its time and its interlinkages with new orchestration. I see that Schuster of whom I knew nothing was instrumental in making Faure popular here. That is a definite plus point in my view. I am struck by the extent to which Elgar weaves in and out of that circle and similar associations and am half surprised by that fact as I don't hear it much in his music. Very slightly further north, ie Worcestershire, I am unsure about Julius Harrison's Bredon Hill and how or not it elides with Butterworth's. I should know as I like to think I know it but I haven't grasped it somehow.

A more constructive point than any of the above is the next one. I was very disappointed and even upset by the state of Leith Hill Place when two years ago I finally got to see the inside of it. The graffiti in the basement, for example, is truly shocking. NT is working slowly on it all. It could be turned into something fantastic, especially now the threat of fracking is over, but I reckon it needs a bit of a 21st Century musical vision to make it so and it won't best be left simply to the restoration people. May I humbly suggest that you forward your book and anything else you have which might help turn it into the fullest and most educational celebration of RVW as this is what is needed rather than a few inelegant half-hearted plaques?

As plain Joe Soap with no influence, I do actually have a vision for Leith Hill Place. It is one in which the inside is not only the equivalent for RVW (with rooms also for Wedgwood and Darwin) as Chartwell is to Churchill but where weekly recitals would take place while outside space is made for symphonies to be performed monthly from spring through to autumn. The problem I have is that I have no background in such a thing, am non corporate, and worst of all in these times would refuse all pay which means my credibility would be seen as nil.

[BBMmk2]

Leith Hill Place is certainly worth a visit.

[Pabmusic]

Some further random and, in the main, rather lightweight thoughts ...

Very interesting ones, nonetheless. I've never been to Leith Hill Place (and doubt I ever will now) but there is a lot of history there.

As for the Gloucestershire connexion - it's certainly true, but I wouldn't overdo it, because George loved the north countryside - though he used to tell pupils at Aysgarth prep school that he was a cockney! George's grandfather, Rev. George Butterworth, was the vicar of Deerhurst, near Tewkesbury for about 45 years, and George's father, uncle and aunt had been born in the vicarage. He'd married the daughter of the Bishop of Lincoln, whose surname was Kaye, and Alexander (our George's dad) adopted it for himself and eventually his son. Rather like Vaughan Williams's forebears. Alexander was a barrister, too, and practised in Lincoln's Inn before he joined the GWR's legal dept (that's why they lived in Paddington when George was born). Then Alexander was appointed Solicitor to the NER, and they all moved to York (he eventually became General Manager, and was knighted for leading the employers' side in the national railway strike of 1911). He really wanted George to enter the law, but he wasn't having any of it, and there was a very Edwardian falling-out and estrangement while George got a job as a music-critic for The Times.

George's mother was a noted soprano of her day, Julia Wigan. She was Professor of Singing at the Croydon and Hampstead Conservatoires (neither college survived WW1). She was six years older than her husband and apparently 'wore the trousers'. Apparently she organized everything to do with George's education - many private tutors until he was sent to prep school at 10 - and Alexander just paid for it all. She came from Portishead, near Bristol, so another Gloucestershire/Somerset connexion. She had been the "Resident Pupil" of Mme. Charlotte Sainton-Dolby, who had sung the soprano solo in the first British performance of the St. Matthew Passion. She was the widow of Prosper Sainton (and both were grandparents of the composer Philip Sainton). She died in 1885 while Julia was heavily pregnant with George - hence the name which no-one in the media ever pronounces correctly. It's French and George pronounced it that way - his (still living) 1st cousin Hugh confirmed this - he had never known George of course, but had been close to "Uncle Alick".

[Lat-Literal]

Very interesting ones, nonetheless. I've never been to Leith Hill Place (and doubt I ever will now) but there is a lot of history there.

As for the Gloucestershire connexion - it's certainly true, but I wouldn't overdo it, because George loved the north countryside - though he used to tell pupils at Aysgarth prep school that he was a cockney! George's grandfather, Rev. George Butterworth, was the vicar of Deerhurst, near Tewkesbury for about 45 years, and George's father, uncle and aunt had been born in the vicarage. He'd married the daughter of the Bishop of Lincoln, whose surname was Kaye, and Alexander (our George's dad) adopted it for himself and eventually his son. Rather like Vaughan Williams's forebears. Alexander was a barrister, too, and practised in Lincoln's Inn before he joined the GWR's legal dept (that's why they lived in Paddington when George was born). Then Alexander was appointed Solicitor to the NER, and they all moved to York (he eventually became General Manager, and was knighted for leading the employers' side in the national railway strike of 1911). He really wanted George to enter the law, but he wasn't having any of it, and there was a very Edwardian falling-out and estrangement while George got a job as a music-critic for The Times.

George's mother was a noted soprano of her day, Julia Wigan. She was Professor of Singing at the Croydon and Hampstead Conservatoires (neither college survived WW1). She was six years older than her husband and apparently 'wore the trousers'. Apparently she organized everything to do with George's education - many private tutors until he was sent to prep school at 10 - and Alexander just paid for it all. She came from Portishead, near Bristol, so another Gloucestershire/Somerset connexion. She had been the "Resident Pupil" of Mme. Charlotte Sainton-Dolby, who had sung the soprano solo in the first British performance of the St. Matthew Passion. She was the widow of Prosper Sainton (and both were grandparents of the composer Philip Sainton). She died in 1885 while Julia was heavily pregnant with George - hence the name which no-one in the media ever pronounces correctly. It's French and George pronounced it that way - his (still living) 1st cousin Hugh confirmed this - he had never known George of course, but had been close to "Uncle Alick".

Given the Croydon connection, I wonder if his mother encountered Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)?

The date of Song of Hiawatha is 1898-ish.

[Pabmusic]

Given the Croydon connection, I wonder if his mother encountered Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)?

The date of Song of Hiawatha is 1898-ish.

Probably not, as she gave up the colleges when they moved to York in 1891. Likewise, there's two Hampstead possibilities - but both several years after then - Cecil Sharp (Principal) and Arnold Bax (student).

[Barbirollians]

Very fascinating stuff Pabs - makes me feel I want to listen to the symphony at once .

Barbirolli Pye I think ...

[Pabmusic]

Very fascinating stuff Pabs - makes me feel I want to listen to the symphony at once .

Barbirolli Pye I think ...

Excellent choice.

[Bryn]

Excellent choice.

My introduction to the work, and still my favourite recording of the final revised version. That said, I and currently watching/listening to the Hickox 2005 Prom performance of the original version, via the iPlayer. Wonderful respectful hiaitus before the applause at the end.

[Barbirollians]

I have the excellent Hickox of the original version - is there a good recording of the second 1920 version ?

[Bryn]

The Brabbins, as broadcast on Afternoon on 3 last year, is on Hyperion. That is the better option, compared to the Yates on Dutton, I reckon.

[Pianoman]

Brabbins all the way for me in this version, superb playing and recorded sound - and very interesting fillers

[Bryn]

Brabbins all the way for me in this version, superb playing and recorded sound - and very interesting fillers

I would just note that when it was broadcast, in advance of its CD release, on the afternoon of the First Night of the Proms, last year, no mention was made of it being the 1920 version, though its future release on the Hyperion label was announced.

[Pabmusic]

I would just note that when it was broadcast, in advance of its CD release, on the afternoon of the First Night of the Proms, last year, no mention was made of it being the 1920 version, though its future release on the Hyperion label was announced.

How strange.

The 1920 version is a rewriting of the original, a true restructuring (at least in terms of the Scherzo and Finale) and ought to be thought of as London 2.0. The 1936 version is not a restructuring, it's little more than London-Lite.

Here's a page of RVW's tinkering for the 1936 version (the printed version is the 1920). I can't imagine why Stainer & Bell agreed to it. They had to re-engrave many pages of score, and produce new parts - and by the mid-1930s RVW had stopped using them anyway. Perhaps they were trying to win back his custom.

[BBMmk2]

Fascinating as always, reading what the composer’s thoughts were!