RVW - "A London Symphony"

[BBMmk2]

Very interesting. In the BL there is the short score (in effect a piano version) prepared by Bevis Ellis, Francis Toye andGeorgeButterworth. Obviously it's of the first version.

Thank you Pabs.

[Pabmusic]

I have made a little documentary to accompany Dan Godfrey's 1925 recording, on the basis that 50 minutes of acoustic recording is a strain for some. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Xn6WZr-kc

[Alain Maréchal]

Splendid work, thank you very much.

[BBMmk2]

I have made a little documentary to accompany Dan Godfrey's 1925 recording, on the basis that 50 minutes of acoustic recording is a strain for some. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Xn6WZr-kc

[Tevot]

I have made a little documentary to accompany Dan Godfrey's 1925 recording, on the basis that 50 minutes of acoustic recording is a strain for some. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Xn6WZr-kc

Many thanks for this Pabs. Fascinating, evocative and moving. I had little previous knowledge of the symphony's origins or the role that many in RVW's close circle had in its advocacy - and how tragic that the symphony became in many respects their epitaph.

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[antongould]

Splendid work, thank you very much.

Agreed - wonderful pabs ......

[EdgeleyRob]

I have made a little documentary to accompany Dan Godfrey's 1925 recording, on the basis that 50 minutes of acoustic recording is a strain for some. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Xn6WZr-kc

Only just seen this,many thanks Pabs

[Pabmusic]

A bit of speculation (pt. 1)

As you may know, my book on George Butterworth: Words, Deeds & Memory comes out very soon, before the Armistice centenary. Right at the last minute I was shown an entry in Hubert Parry's diary for the night of the concert (March 27th, 1914) at which A London Symphony was first performed. Fortunately, I was just able to include it in the book, though without the intriguing speculation that it leads to. So I'm giving that to you now - make of it what you will.

Parry attended the first performance and sat with Felix "Bob" Schuster (later to become the uncle of Mary Warnock of 'the report'). Parry recorded later that evening:

"Vaughan Williams' London City, full of interest and thought, with fine effects of scoring which Bob Schuster told me were not all his own, as some other young musicians had helped in that a great deal".

Now this is quite significant, because it suggests that the help RVW had received from "other young musicians" was becoming known as early as the evening of the premiere. And Parry is quite clear - he was told that the "fine effects of scoring" were not all the composer's. True, Parry talks only about scoring, but we know that Arnold Bax had suggested a passage (or an oboe counter-melody – Bax’s and RVW’s accounts differ) but that RVW altered it because it sounded too Baxian. We also know (because RVW told us in print at least twice) that Butterworth had suggested the whole project, and was shown all the sketches as they were finished – a process of many months – and that the younger man was critical of some of it.

Which brings us to the Butterworth connexion. The concert at which it was first performed was one of three, two orchestral and one chamber, funded by the very wealthy Bevis Ellis, a grandson of the 6th Baron Howard de Walden. He was a friend of Butterworth’s from Eton, where they were both King’s Scholars – I believe that George had suggested the symphony to his friend. Then there’s ‘Bob’ Schuster – another old-Etonian friend of George. Butterworth and Schuster had collected folksongs together in Shropshire.

So – Butterworth suggests that RVW write the symphony, sees all the sketches as they’re finished and discusses progress (he was regularly dining with Ralph & Adeline then – they lived in Cheyne Walk, he in Cheyne Gdns). Then he (perhaps) suggests the symphony for inclusion in one of the F. B. Ellis concerts that his friend is planning (we know that he met with Ellis to discuss the concerts and their financial backing). Then he undertakes to “revise” the full score in time for the performance. Then on that night Parry is writing that he’s been told that it’s scoring at least was “not all his own”.

I doubt Parry kept that to himself – at the very least he must have mentioned it to RVW (probably with a hearty slap on the back - Mr Toad comes to mind). And RVW was not all that thick-skinned. Butterworth was notoriously persistent in his enthusiasms (“the egregious Mr Butterworth” as another song-collector called him, regretting having to spend a whole week with him). I suspect he was mildly autistic, with all the “enthusiastic puppy” traits that lead to a mixture of loveability and exhaustion.

In these circumstances, it was fortunate that the score (with all the other people’s tell-tale handwriting) disappeared when it did, before it became better-known. (contd. in next post)

[Pabmusic]

A bit of speculation (pt. 2)

(contd.)


There is much speculation here, of course. The other possibilities for the disappearance are:

1. RVW’s own story that he sent it to Breitkopf & Härtel in Berlin, or that he sent it to Fritz Busch in Germany (he told both versions, though Busch of course might have been a ‘reader’ for B & H). But if so, why was a second performance scheduled for August 12th in Harrogate? There weren’t two scores. Perhaps Julian Clifford conducted from the short score Butterworth & friends had made. B & H have no record of it, but two world wars might have something to do with that.

2. The score was never sent to Germany, but was genuinely lost after the Harrogate performance. But if this were truly a comedy of errors, why make up the Germany tale?

(1) must remain the more likely – after all, it’s what RVW said more than once. But what I’ve shared above is at least interesting, and might be a good reminder that we are all humans, subject to human emotions.



Here's a nice picture of Butterworth & friends on Hugh Allen's yacht (1907-ish - I think they're at Oxford). George is up the mast. Reggie ("R.O.") Morris is in the bow, but I don't know the one in the middle.

[Lat-Literal]

As you may know, my book on George Butterworth: Words, Deeds & Memory comes out very soon, before the Armistice centenary. Right at the last minute I was shown an entry in Hubert Parry's diary for the night of the concert (March 27th, 1914) at which A London Symphony was first performed. Fortunately, I was just able to include it in the book, though without the intriguing speculation that it leads to. So I'm giving that to you now - make of it what you will.

Parry attended the first performance and sat with Felix "Bob" Schuster (later to become the uncle of Mary Warnock of 'the report'). Parry recorded later that evening:

"Vaughan Williams' London City, full of interest and thought, with fine effects of scoring which Bob Schuster told me were not all his own, as some other young musicians had helped in that a great deal".

Now this is quite significant, because it suggests that the help RVW had received from "other young musicians" was becoming known as early as the evening of the premiere. And Parry is quite clear - he was told that the "fine effects of scoring" were not all the composer's. True, Parry talks only about scoring, but we know that Arnold Bax had suggested a passage (or an oboe counter-melody – Bax’s and RVW’s accounts differ) but that RVW altered it because it sounded too Baxian. We also know (because RVW told us in print at least twice) that Butterworth had suggested the whole project, and was shown all the sketches as they were finished – a process of many months – and that the younger man was critical of some of it.

Which brings us to the Butterworth connexion. The concert at which it was first performed was one of three, two orchestral and one chamber, funded by the very wealthy Bevis Ellis, a grandson of the 6th Baron Howard de Walden. He was a friend of Butterworth’s from Eton, where they were both King’s Scholars – I believe that George had suggested the symphony to his friend. Then there’s ‘Bob’ Schuster – another old-Etonian friend of George. Butterworth and Schuster had collected folksongs together in Shropshire.

So – Butterworth suggests that RVW write the symphony, sees all the sketches as they’re finished and discusses progress (he was regularly dining with Ralph & Adeline then – they lived in Cheyne Walk, he in Cheyne Gdns). Then he (perhaps) suggests the symphony for inclusion in one of the F. B. Ellis concerts that his friend is planning (we know that he met with Ellis to discuss the concerts and their financial backing). Then he undertakes to “revise” the full score in time for the performance. Then on that night Parry is writing that he’s been told that it’s scoring at least was “not all his own”.

I doubt Parry kept that to himself – at the very least he must have mentioned it to RVW (probably with a hearty slap on the back - Mr Toad comes to mind). And RVW was not all that thick-skinned. Butterworth was notoriously persistent in his enthusiasms (“the egregious Mr Butterworth” as another song-collector called him, regretting having to spend a whole week with him). I suspect he was mildly autistic, with all the “enthusiastic puppy” traits that lead to a mixture of loveability and exhaustion.

In these circumstances, it was fortunate that the score (with all the other people’s tell-tale handwriting) disappeared when it did, before it became better-known. (contd. in next post)

Interesting, as always, Pabs but what are the implications here? I'm sure you have explained this before so sorry to be a bit slow. However, surely there isn't any sort of claim that this is really a Butterworth symphony (or a Bax symphony) or a collaboration which was so considerable that it has to be viewed as something other than an RVW symphony? You know Butterworth so well and I certainly don't. I just know his well known pieces. In the scope of his work which is narrow because of his sad, untimely death is it really possible to hear any direct crossover? I would have thought in the main that his music is of a different (textural?) colour? My very best wishes and good luck for the publication of your book by the way.

[Pabmusic]

Interesting, as always, Pabs but what are the implications here? I'm sure you have explained this before so sorry to be a bit slow. However, surely there isn't any sort of claim that this is really a Butterworth symphony (or a Bax symphony) or a collaboration which was so considerable that it has to be viewed as something other than an RVW symphony? You know Butterworth so well and I certainly don't. I just know his well known pieces. In the scope of his work which is narrow because of his sad, untimely death is it really possible to hear any direct crossover? I would have thought in the main that his music is of a different (textural?) colour? My very best wishes and good luck for the publication of your book by the way.

I wouldn't want to overdo this, Lat. I don't think GSKB 'composed' any significant part of the London (though it seems that Bax possibly tried to). But RVW and family were abroad in Italy and Switzerland for a few months over Christmas 1913 - precisely when Butterworth & friends were 'revising' the score before having the parts produced; presumably RVW gave some indication of what he wanted the revision to include, but whether it was very general or very precise we have no idea, though later his instructions to Roy Douglas could be vague. It would be marvelous for a letter to Butterworth from RVW to emerge, wouldn't it? He probably tinkered with it according to general instructions that RVW left him, particularly with the scoring - at least enough to be noticeable from the score. All done of course with RVW's blessing, though I suspect GSKB could be quite overpowering at times. It is certainly true that GSKB felt there were problems with the Finale & Epilogue - which is perhaps why he concentrated on that when then friends made the short score. RVW later said that George would look at the Finale, shake his head and say "It won't do at all" without saying what was the problem. (But then RVW also said that GSKB "possessed ... a wonderful power of criticism other men's work and insight into their ideas and motives", and it's interesting that the first revision RVW made was to excise the "bad hymn tune" third subject from the Finale - perhaps that was it). Even after the first performance, George was counseling RVW not to alter it until after a second hearing.

So - I think GSKB played quite a role in the symphony's genesis - and probably was responsible for its existence - which is probably why RVW added the dedication in 1920.

[Pabmusic]

... In the scope of his work which is narrow because of his sad, untimely death is it really possible to hear any direct crossover? I would have thought in the main that his music is of a different (textural?) colour? ...

I think there are fewer similarities than you might expect, and many of those arise from the common source of folk-song. Butterworth was the more gifted orchestrator - in fact he had an extremely keen ear - Debussy being very much a model.

However, there's one passage of RVW that probably arose from GSKB's music: the opening of A Pastoral Symphony. Here's the tale.

George left all his unpublished music to RVW. This was, of course, most of it - although the Housman songs, other songs and some small choral pieces had been published in his lifetime. Sir Alexander Kaye Butterworth asked RVW to select pieces suitable to be published, Sir Alick defraying the costs. Stainer & Bell published the Two English Idylls and The Banks of Green Willow, Novello published the Shropshire Lad Rhapsody and Love Blows As The Wind Blows.

Only the last piece caused RVW any serious editorial work. The reason was that (1) it existed in two quite different versions - voice & string quartet (1912), four songs; and voice & small orchestra (1914), three songs. Also, there was no version for voice & piano (necessary at least for practice). So RVW produced a piano version himself. This he did in 1922-1923, in parallel with composing the Pastoral Symphony, which he finished in June 1923.

The point is - the last song in Love Blows (On the way to Kew) has a prominent repeated figure in root-position triads moving by step, creating a modal feel of dorian G and myxolidian G - the two are contrasted. This idea is obviously the flowing river, but it's written in an almost minimalist way, bar after bar repeating the same idea. (George did this sort of thing quite a lot.)

And how does RVW's symphony, which he wrote at exactly the same time, begin? - with root-position triads moving by step, creating a modal feel of myxolidian G and dorian G. I don't think it's possible to think that George wasn't in his mind as he wrote the work at the same time he was writing a piano arrangement of his dead friend's triad-based piece. RVW's piece has a different 'feel' - it's not a copy at all, but I can't believe there's not a nod to George there.

[Lat-Literal]

Many thanks, pab, for these two posts. Unless it is at an outlandish price, I will be buying your book from an interest point of view but mostly because you always engage in such an informative, interesting way and so it will be a thanking you for the enriching contributions you make to the forum from which I feel I have personally benefited. I held back from saying that I felt that RVW2 was to my ears unequivocally RVW and of no one else. I am not sure I do feel that instinctively, knowing many of his other works, or that contrary to majority opinion he is easily categorized. The symphonies alone are wide ranging. Bax, of course, is varied too. I find his symphonies are very different to some of his other more popular work.

In that mix, yes, I think I could probably hear some of Bax in RVW2 but that would be tentative. Whatever, it is quite interesting to me that so much debate seemed to be around the last movement. I am on record as saying of what is my favourite symphony that I think its heights are mainly in the first half. But there is just a little something about the possibility of the work even from today's perspective being slightly contentious or flawed. That is a part of its appeal to me. Not too perfect and in being so probably perfect if that makes sense.

[Pabmusic]

... I find his symphonies are very different to some of his other more popular work ...

Spot on, Lat. But there's something else about the London - it was his first symphony. Oh, I know he called the Sea a symphony, but he hardly meant it - it's a very fine choral work. The progrmme notes for the first performance said that the word 'symphony' referred to the way RVW had compiled the text. And that's important - having a text provides a structure without your having to think very much about it. I've posted before that neither RVW nor Butterworth thought of the London as anything but RVW's first symphony. RVW's own record of his reaction to George's "You know - you ought to write a symphony" was "I replied that I never had and never intended to". (That's from a 1918 letter, but he repeated it in print in 1934.) George's reaction to the first performance (after writing a long critique) was "In the meantime - here's to Sym. No. 2!" - clearly meaning "here's to the next one!" (and George knew the Sea well - he'd been at the first performance in Leeds). It was only in 1956 that RVW gave into his publisher's demands and gave No. 8 a number - and by that time Boult had recorded 7 'symphonies' anyway.

I think the thing was that the London was RVW's first large-scale orchestral piece of any sort. He had no text to provide a skeleton, and to keep the listener's attention for almost an hour is not easy. No wonder RVW had 'cold feet' (at least a bit). I think Butterworth, Bax, & co. provided a sort of moral support for which we all should be grateful.

From the Butterworth perspective, I'm reminded of a quote from Adrian Boult in the introduction to the 1948 reprint of the Memorial Volume that Sir Alexander had privately printed in 1918: "There are probably few people living now who remember that quiet but impressive figure who was in the centre of London music". In many ways he was a sort of catalyst for others.

[ardcarp]

"There are probably few people living now who remember that quiet but impressive figure who was in the centre of London music".

...and soon the same might be said of people who knew/encountered RVW in person. I'm lucky enough to have met a few, one only yesterday as it happens, which is why your post struck a chord Pabs.