RVW - "A London Symphony"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... the Dover score (Monet parliament on the cover) is the 1933/1936 revision

The Dover ... is the 1933-1936 version.

There ye go, Bbm!

[Pabmusic]

Here’s a history of the score: it’s quite interesting.

These are all the performances given before the score was published:

March 27, 1914 Queen’s Hall Queen’s Hall Orch./Geoffrey Toye

At some time after this, the only full score was lost. RVW said at different times that it was sent to Germany in July for engraving, or that he sent it to Fritz Busch on Donald Tovey’s advice. Anyhow, war was declared on August 4.

August 12, 1914 Harrogate Winter Gdns Harrogate Municipal Orch./Julian Clifford

Just what score was used for this is a mystery. If RVW is right, it wasn’t still in Britain (and if it was, then it can’t ever have been sent to Germany after this performance, because we were at war). There was a short score (now in the BL) that Francis Toye, Bevis Ellis and George Butterworth had already made, so perhaps that was used. (It was during the making of the short score that RVW recalled Butterworth saying of one passage in the last movement, “It won’t do. It won’t do at all”.)

Anyway, a new full score was copied from the parts, but by whom? Traditionally it is said to have been Geoffrey Toye, Edward Dent and Butterworth, but the score has been so mucked about with by RVW that it is quite difficult to tell who did what. This was the score used for the Bournemouth performance. Thus the first three performances were of essentially the same music.

February 11, 1915 Bournemouth Winter Gdns Bournemouth Municipal Orch./Dan Godfrey

Then the Carnegie Trust announced that they wanted to include it in their first issue of scores of British music, to be published by Stainer & Bell. (Others in the first batch were to be Bantock’s Hebridean Symphony and Boughton’s The Immortal Hour.) RVW asked for time to revise it – “It is absolutely essential that it should be thoroughly revised before printing and, owing to my military dutiesI see no chance of being able to do this during the war”.

February 18, 1918 Queen’s Hall LSO/Adrian Boult

March 18, 1918 Queen’s Hall LSO/Adrian Boult

These were still the uncut version (except that Boult later thought RVW has removed the third subject of the Finale between the two concerts, because he said it was “like a bad hymn-tune”). RVW attended and was impressed by Boult’s conducting. But pressure was growing to make cuts. Several critics had mentioned the need for them, and Boult had obviously talked about this after the first of his two performances, for RVW wrote before the second performance, saying, “I agree with you that the last movement and possibly the scherzo … are too long – but it is re-writing they want…”.

Cutting and rewriting continued through 1919. Boult thought RVW made three separate major stabs at revision (“slashing”, he called it) during this period – some were made in Boult’s room (full of boots) in the War Office.

May 4, 1920 Queen’s Hall LSO/Albert Coates

This was the result and it was a big success. This is what Stainer & Bell printed (well, more or less, because RVW still tinkered a bit) in the Carnegie series.

The S & B printing was the first publication. RVW made more revisions in 1933; that version was performed in 1934 and published (by S & B) in 1936. It would be a very brave person who’d say that RVW made no alterations between the 1934 performance and the 1936 printing.

[makropulos]

If it does it will only be because of poor printing, not because of the text. There have been only two textual editions: the first printed edition of 1920, and the 1936 printed edition, incorporating the 1933 revisions. The latter icludes the description "revised edition". The Dover leaves this out, but it is the 1933-1936 version.

The 1933-1936 version has 193 pages; the first published version (1920) has 199. You will have fun trying to find a copy.

None of this changes the fact that the 1920 version had already gone theough several revisions,

My Dover score is fine.

My mistake! I have a miniature score (S&B with Carnegie covers) which has 199pp. As you say, the Dover one is 193pp.

Incidentally, the score on IMSLP is also 193pp.

Has anybody tried Archibald Jacob's arrangement for piano duet? I'm delighted to see that Stainer and Bell have it in their print-on-demand list (along with Vally Lasker's piano solo arrangement).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If it does it will only be because of poor printing, not because of the text. There have been only two textual editions: the first printed edition of 1920, and the 1936 printed edition, incorporating the 1933 revisions. The latter icludes the description "revised edition". The Dover leaves this out, but it is the 1933-1936 version.
The 1933-1936 version has 193 pages; the first published version (1920) has 199. You will have fun trying to find a copy.
None of this changes the fact that the 1920 version had already gone theough several revisions,

My Dover score is fine.

So is mine - I followed the Haitink recording with it earlier this evening; the print is clear throughout, and despite the back cover still claiming it's what Stainer & Bell published in 1920, what's between the covers is exactly what Haitink performs.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Further investigation of the editorial content of the Dover score reveals that it is a 2013 repissue of the text as first published by Dover in 1996, with a few extra additions - a "prefatory note, contents and instrumentation, a footnote on page 9 [ which points out a "labelling error" in the Stainer & Bell source, which has the second flute simultaneously playing in unison with the first AND playing Piccolo - it should have read "third Flute" ] and a note clarifying the Scherzo repeat".

It is a very clearly printed score, a bit larger than A4 in size, and with a superbly apt cover reproduction of Monet's Houses of Parliament - if Bbm hasn't yet invested, I can certainly recommend he has no further hesitation on the grounds of text. I'm delighted with my purchase, and thank all Forumistas for their help, advice , and information on this Thread.

[EdgeleyRob]

Yes a very interesting thread even for someone who doesn't collect scores,many thanks.

[Pabmusic]

So is mine - I followed the Haitink recording with it earlier this evening; the print is clear throughout, and despite the back cover still claiming it's what Stainer & Bell published in 1920, what's between the covers is exactly what Haitink performs.

I am pleased. The Dover is essentially a photographic reproduction of the S & B, with a tinkering or two (as you point out in the next post).

As for there being a disconnect between what's implied and what's actually between the covers, I supect both Mrs Pabs nos 1 & 2 might understand well...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

PABS!!!

[Pabmusic]

PABS!!!

I couldn't help myself.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[EdgeleyRob]

Suddenly the thread is even more interesting.

[secondfiddle]

Here’s a history of the score: it’s quite interesting.

These are all the performances given before the score was published:

March 27, 1914 Queen’s Hall Queen’s Hall Orch./Geoffrey Toye

At some time after this, the only full score was lost. RVW said at different times that it was sent to Germany in July for engraving, or that he sent it to Fritz Busch on Donald Tovey’s advice. Anyhow, war was declared on August 4.

August 12, 1914 Harrogate Winter Gdns Harrogate Municipal Orch./Julian Clifford

To add to this list of performances:

November 30 1914 Usher Hall, Edinburgh Scottish Orchestra/RVW ['Letters of Ralph Vaughan Williams' ed. Cobbe, p.102]

[Pabmusic]

To add to this list of performances:

November 30 1914 Usher Hall, Edinburgh Scottish Orchestra/RVW ['Letters of Ralph Vaughan Williams' ed. Cobbe, p.102]

Many thanks - I've only just seen your post.

[BBMmk2]

what a pity Anthony Goldstone has passed away. On Record review today, Andrew Mc mentioned a proposed recording iof piano version of this symphony. Most certainly the 5th sounded very good in this but with RVW's close involvement as well, it certainly made a case of an authentic transcription.

[Pabmusic]

what a pity Anthony Goldstone has passed away. On Record review today, Andrew Mc mentioned a proposed recording iof piano version of this symphony. Most certainly the 5th sounded very good in this but with RVW's close involvement as well, it certainly made a case of an authentic transcription.

Very interesting. In the BL there is the short score (in effect a piano version) prepared by Bevis Ellis, Francis Toye and GeorgeButterworth. Obviously it's of the first version.