RVW - "A London Symphony"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm a bit confused by this. I have a Stainer and Bell score and it seems to correspond with the final version of the symphony.

I wonder why VW made so many revisions to this particular symphony. Changes to the others are insignificant in comparison.

[Pabmusic]

I'm a bit confused by this. I have a Stainer and Bell score and it seems to correspond with the final version of the symphony.

I wonder why VW made so many revisions to this particular symphony. Changes to the others are insignificant in comparison.

Stainer & Bell is the publisher (otside the US at least) because it will be copyright until 2039 or so.

One of the reasons he made so many changes was that it was his first symphony (yes, I know we now call the Sea Symphony no. 1, but RVW clearly thought of this one as his first at the time). It was a very big departure for RVW, and most critics at the time commented on how long it was. Butterworth (who had suggested the whole project) had misgivings about the last movement, although he advised RVW not to do anything till after the second performance. RVW seems to have taken this advice.

So the changes before the first publication in 1920 were all about tightening the structure. They consisted of 1 bar from the 1st mvt, 40 from the 2nd, 12 extra in the 3rd, 54 from the 4th, and 24 from the Epilogue.

Quite why he made more cuts in 1933 is less clear. Several, including Boult, thought he'd gone too far. This time he left the 1st mvt unchanged, cut 12 more bars fromthe 2nd, left the 3rd unchanged, cut 11 more from the 4th, and 25 from the Epilogue. That's the version we all know.

Interestingly, the Epilogue cut was exactly that Dan Godfrey had made for the 1926 recording, which is otherwise complete. Perhaps RVW just liked it.

Annoyingly, Columbia didn't record Godfrey electronically. They could have done, so the records didn't sell well.

[Pulcinella]

The S & B can be found on amazon.co.uk.

I'm confused too (not an unusual state to be in!).
The link took me to amazon.com, Bryn.

This Presto link shows the S&B study score available at £15.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/sm/composer|1270~work|59727-b

[Bryn]

I'm confused too (not an unusual state to be in!).
The link took me to amazon.com, Bryn.

Oops. Sorry, I had been switching around between Amazon locations, just changing the relevant part of the URL.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interestingly, the Epilogue cut was exactly that Dan Godfrey had made for the 1926 recording, which is otherwise complete. Perhaps RVW just liked it.

Now that is very interesting. Well - the whole post was, of course, but I pick up on this point because Mark Lowther (the BaL reviewer of the work yesterday) referred to the Henry Wood's as the first recording of the work, adding that the Godfrey had preceded it, but that it had so many cuts to fit onto 78 sides that it couldn't be really considered. (He then illustrated the Wood with an excerpt from the second movement - which has a cut after the viola solo!)


I'm slightly reluctant to suggest this (on today, of all days!) but could it be that Butterworth was Vaughan Williams' Schalk - making well-meaning suggestions for cuts and amendations to the Symphony that weren't really necessary? The "tinkerings" continued long after Butterworth's death, though - so rather just RVW's post-war rejection of the "big" pre-War, hour-long, semi-programmatic Symphony, in favour of the more concise, Sibelian symphonic ideal of the 1920s onwards - including the structural "tinkerings" of the London?

[Pabmusic]

Now that is very interesting. Well - the whole post was, of course, but I pick up on this point because Mark Lowther (the BaL reviewer of the work yesterday) referred to the Henry Wood's as the first recording of the work, adding that the Godfrey had preceded it, but that it had so many cuts to fit onto 78 sides that it couldn't be really considered. (He then illustrated the Wood with an excerpt from the second movement - which has a cut after the viola solo!)


I'm slightly reluctant to suggest this (on today, of all days!) but could it be that Butterworth was Vaughan Williams' Schalk - making well-meaning suggestions for cuts and amendations to the Symphony that weren't really necessary? The "tinkerings" continued long after Butterworth's death, though - so rather just RVW's post-war rejection of the "big" pre-War, hour-long, semi-programmatic Symphony, in favour of the more concise, Sibelian symphonic ideal of the 1920s onwards - including the structural "tinkerings" of the London?

The Godfrey is absolutely complete except for the bars in the Epilogue. It even has the repeat in the Scherzo. Henry Wood made several cuts of his own.

I sort of agree with you about GSKB. But so many reviews of the first and second (Harrogate) performances commented how long it was, so I suspect he had a point.

[BBMmk2]

What's the price of the full score?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What's the price of the full score?

Depends which edition and from which seller you buy it, Bbm. I've gone for the Dover edition which has cost me just under £11.50 including P&P for a new copy. Prices go up to £66.80! - but I think that's for the "proper" hardbacked, conductors' score. Second-hand copies of the Stainier & Bell start at around £15 (including P&P).

[Pulcinella]

Depends which edition and from which seller you buy it, Bbm. I've gone for the Dover edition which has cost me just under £11.50 including P&P for a new copy. Prices go up to £66.80! - but I think that's for the "proper" hardbacked, conductors' score. Second-hand copies of the Stainier & Bell start at around £15 (including P&P).

Confusion (a bit) still reigns!
The link I gave in post 18 shows the study score (OK, not 'full score' in the conducting from sense) at £15 plus p+p new not second hand. Not a bad price, surely? (Which means that it might go on my Santa list!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Confusion (a bit) still reigns! The link I gave in post 18 shows the study score (OK, not 'full score' in the conducting from sense) at £15 plus p+p new not second hand. Not a bad price, surely? (Which means that it might go on my Santa list!)

Yes - that is a good price for the S&B edition. My cheapskate purchase (which has gone up by the princely figure of 3p since I ordered - that's a whacking great .03% increase in two hours!) is of the Dover edition (nicer cover, larger print, cheaper).

I think (it's impossible to be sure from the Amazon site) the S&B Study score is a smaller imprint of their Full Score/Conductors' publication. Either that, or the Amazon pricing algorithm is having a laugh.

[ardcarp]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Godfrey#/media/File:Parry-Mackenzie-Stanford.jpg

(Another era.)

[makropulos]

Yes - that is a good price for the S&B edition. My cheapskate purchase (which has gone up by the princely figure of 3p since I ordered - that's a whacking great .03% increase in two hours!) is of the Dover edition (nicer cover, larger print, cheaper).

I think (it's impossible to be sure from the Amazon site) the S&B Study score is a smaller imprint of their Full Score/Conductors' publication. Either that, or the Amazon pricing algorithm is having a laugh.

Ah - if I remember rightly, the Dover score might give you a few surprises in the closing pages.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah - if I remember rightly, the Dover score might give you a few surprises in the closing pages.

NOW you tell me!!!!

[Pabmusic]

Ah - if I remember rightly, the Dover score might give you a few surprises in the closing pages.

If it does it will only be because of poor printing, not because of the text. There have been only two textual editions: the first printed edition of 1920, and the 1936 printed edition, incorporating the 1933 revisions. The latter icludes the description "revised edition". The Dover leaves this out, but it is the 1933-1936 version.

The 1933-1936 version has 193 pages; the first published version (1920) has 199. You will have fun trying to find a copy.

None of this changes the fact that the 1920 version had already gone theough several revisions,

My Dover score is fine.

[BBMmk2]

So which edition does Dover use?