Kubelik Mahler Cycle

[Roger Webb]

Reminds me of a quixotic search I had a few years ago with the Dresden/Abbado Brahms 3. I was convinced I must have had a dodgy pressing and went in search of a good one. Three more LPs later it sank in: it’s just an awfully muddy recording…



Now there’s a radical reinterpretation of the essentially cyclic nature of Mahler’s symphonic output. (Where did I read that the Totenfeier is the funeral of the first symphony’s hero? Maybe Kennedy?)

The Qobuz files: they’re available at 24/96k or just remastered that way?

I haven’t had a proper chance to listen to LPs for quite a while. My Kubelík LPs are in that Jubilee box, the CDs are in the Collectors Edition (apostrophe placement uncertain) from I think the late 1990s. I must compare again but I’m sure the LPs brought the music over incomparably better. Whether that’s down to hearing details despite the crackle, or to the imponderables of slicing sounds up 44000 times a second I know not.

Good points above Oliver (are you related to my good Italian friend Subito Molto BTW?) especially the Totenfeier of the 2nd, as it was Mahler himself who made the connection with the hero of the 1st - alas the theory that the mastering engineers had done this purposely falls down listening to subsequent last and first movts. They all have a standard.....wait for it, 4 sec gap!

Just started 3rd this morning, the remastering is clear, bright and has quite acceptable bass (I've put the Quad L series subwoofer on with the 2812 electrostatics for this one), and the 'big bass drum' thunders away quite nicely. But still the slightly wooden sound - and, seemingly in 'blocks' of instruments eg. horns to the right have very little spread, ditto answering calls from trumpet section seem to occupy the same tiny spot, nice idiomatic playing though.

I don't know what the 24/96 denotes. Whether during the process they went back to the original analogue master tapes and digitalised them again or merely used the CD masters of 16/44.1 and upscaled them.
Qobuz is much better at doing this generally than Tidal is for their 'HiFi' tier - with Qobuz you get whatever the record company puts out, up to 24/192, with the Tidal everything is downscaled to 'CD Quality'....and has come in for criticism vis-à-vis the MQA nonsense.

I'm enjoying the Kubelik cycle though, but I won't be getting rid of the three Haitinks: Concertgebouw, Berlin Phil. and most interesting, a live one on BR Classics in 2016 with the Bayrischen Rundfunks but 60 years later than Kubelik....and in the new Phil. im Gasteig, not the Herkules-Saal. I also have Rattle and Bernstein in NY, and Vienna on Dvd.

BaL just starting!

[richardfinegold]

I perhaps should have noticed this before, but the complete set of Kubelik's DG Mahler cycle has been remastered at 24bit/96k, and is on Qobuz. I've been listening to 1 and 5, the two Syms I have on LP ( I played the 5 this afternoon) and compared to the LPs the new remastering really just shows up the original recording as below par in many respects. Firstly the midrange sound is quite upfront and 'lean' - it's quite closely miked I think (you don't get much of the Herkules-Saal acoustic), the bass deficient, and the treble is a bit screamy. I'm a bit disappointed as I thought at last we'd hear these recordings at their best....well I think we are!

I shall continue tomorrow with 3 I think, but this of all Mahler Syms requires 'spacious' sound, and I don't think this remastering will give that!

Just finishing the last movt. of 1st and it's thin and 'close' like 5.....and BTW the first movt. of 2nd Sym comes in within a second of the 1st Sym finishing!

Interesting. I will pull out the Kubelik Mahler Blu Ray sometime (we have grandkids this weekend, so probably not until I’ve had a bit of time to recover).

[Roger Webb]

Interesting. I will pull out the Kubelik Mahler Blu Ray sometime (we have grandkids this weekend, so probably not until I’ve had a bit of time to recover).

Have you got the whole cycle on blu ray? What are 'Red book' specs for that medium, is it 24bit/96k? If it is the Qobuz may have been taken from them. If so it would be interesting to compare them...have you got Qobuz, I seem to remember you did.

[oliver sudden]

I'm enjoying the Kubelik cycle though, but I won't be getting rid of the three Haitinks: Concertgebouw, Berlin Phil. and most interesting, a live one on BR Classics in 2016 with the Bayrischen Rundfunks but 60 years later than Kubelik....and in the new Phil. im Gasteig, not the Herkules-Saal. I also have Rattle and Bernstein in NY, and Vienna on Dvd.

The Philharmonie im Gasteig is dry as anything as far as I can remember! I assume the acoustic has been given a fair bit of ‘help’.

From RCO and Haitink there’s also the Christmas Matinee not-quite-cycle. (There’s no 6, fair enough for Xmas morning… no 8 either but there is a 9!) Some nice alternative views, from the not much of it I’ve managed to listen to, and you get the proper live ‘arch’.

Anyone know the Concertgebouw/Kubelík 5? That was a Diapason cover CD at one point. Or the VPO/Kubelík 1? Very fond of that although steer clear of the fake-stereo LPs.

[Roger Webb]

The Philharmonie im Gasteig is dry as anything as far as I can remember! I assume the acoustic has been given a fair bit of ‘help’.

From RCO and Haitink there’s also the Christmas Matinee not-quite-cycle. (There’s no 6, fair enough for Xmas morning… no 8 either but there is a 9!) Some nice alternative views, from the not much of it I’ve managed to listen to, and you get the proper live ‘arch’.

Anyone know the Concertgebouw/Kubelík 5? That was a Diapason cover CD at one point. Or the VPO/Kubelík 1? Very fond of that although steer clear of the fake-stereo LPs.

That München Haitink is very good actually - I haven't been to that hall (yet) but have heard quite a lot of live broadcasts from there, and BR Classics have a very good track record for sound quality on disc.


I'm very interested in the Concertgebouw/Haitink's...around the early 80's the BBC broadcast (ON TV!!!!) from there, usually Mahler, usually (always?) Haitink...and on Xmas Day! Are these they?!
I'd love to hear them again. Compare this Xmas Day fair with the BBC's current offerings - absolute zilch!

[oliver sudden]

I'm very interested in the Concertgebouw/Haitink's...around the early 80's the BBC broadcast (ON TV!!!!) from there, usually Mahler, usually (always?) Haitink...and on Xmas Day! Are these they?!
I'd love to hear them again. Compare this Xmas Day fair with the BBC's current offerings - absolute zilch!

Those are they! They seem to be out there in both video and audio forms. A bit tricky to find…mine came from Japan via eBay. I would be glad to send preview copies for evaluation purposes but a few of them are on YouTube, which should do the trick?

[Roger Webb]

Those are they! They seem to be out there in both video and audio forms. A bit tricky to find…mine came from Japan via eBay. I would be glad to send preview copies for evaluation purposes but a few of them are on YouTube, which should do the trick?

I'll be straight on YouTube after the Ballo from the Met tonight, thank you so much!

[richardfinegold]

Have you got the whole cycle on blu ray? What are 'Red book' specs for that medium, is it 24bit/96k? If it is the Qobuz may have been taken from them. If so it would be interesting to compare them...have you got Qobuz, I seem to remember you did.

I don’t have Qobuz. Long story.
I presume the Red Book specs are 20 bit/44.1. Otherwise it wouldn’t be red book.
I listened to Symphony #1 on Blu Ray today while the grandkids had a play date. I assume this is the same 24/96 remaster used by Qobuz. It has all the deficiencies that you mentioned earlier. The strings get screechy in the upper registers, no bass, unimpressive mid range. Don’t know why I ever bought a Hig Res version , probably because I have always liked the cycle

[Roger Webb]

I don’t have Qobuz. Long story.
I presume the Red Book specs are 20 bit/44.1. Otherwise it wouldn’t be red book.
I listened to Symphony #1 on Blu Ray today while the grandkids had a play date. I assume this is the same 24/96 remaster used by Qobuz. It has all the deficiencies that you mentioned earlier. The strings get screechy in the upper registers, no bass, unimpressive mid range. Don’t know why I ever bought a Hig Res version , probably because I have always liked the cycle

Yes, I like the Kubelik cycle too, enough to try and find a medium that conveys adequately these performances recorded in the Herkules-Saal - which I know is a hall capable of much better...try some of the BR Classics recordings of Haitink and Maris Jansons. But I think these are just poorly engineered, and nothing can be done about it!

[richardfinegold]

Yes, I like the Kubelik cycle too, enough to try and find a medium that conveys adequately these performances recorded in the Herkules-Saal - which I know is a hall capable of much better...try some of the BR Classics recordings of Haitink and Maris Jansons. But I think these are just poorly engineered, and nothing can be done about it!

Agree, sadly

[oliver sudden]

The strings get screechy in the upper registers, no bass, unimpressive mid range. Don’t know why I ever bought a Hig Res version , probably because I have always liked the cycle

I presume you went for a high res version for the same reason I’ve been hoping for a nice new CD remastering for ages. That being that the stuff that’s wrong with the recordings sounds like the kind of stuff that might have resulted from a dodgy mastering from the early CD days.

But I guess now I know why there hasn’t been a nice new CD remastering…

(It’s not going to stop me listening to the things though. There’s still some excellent music-making going on in there.)

[Roger Webb]

(It’s not going to stop me listening to the things though. There’s still some excellent music-making going on in there.)

It won't stop me continuing my exploration of the set on Qobuz either...but I think this is the end of the road as far as technical quality goes - what a shame these recordings weren't made by the Decca team of John Culshaw (producer) Gordon Parry and Jimmy Lock (engineers) in the Sofiensaal, Vienna. I visited this famous recording venue last time in Vienna, and was amazed how easy it was to walk in the front door, up the stairs and stand on the balcony. It was laid out for a concert - although, after the fire it was restored and now has several uses: café, fitness club and 'boutique' hotel. Brought memories of Humphrey Burton's magical 'The Golden Ring'.....my number one Wagner wish is that Burton be asked to do a director's cut of the one hour documentary with some of the Perfs by Nilsson, Windgassen, Frick restored.....apparently there is three hours of footage laying about in cans somewhere!

[richardfinegold]

I presume you went for a high res version for the same reason I’ve been hoping for a nice new CD remastering for ages. That being that the stuff that’s wrong with the recordings sounds like the kind of stuff that might have resulted from a dodgy mastering from the early CD days.

But I guess now I know why there hasn’t been a nice new CD remastering…

(It’s not going to stop me listening to the things though. There’s still some excellent music-making going on in there.)

Without hearing the original tapes we can only speculate. Your comment that the problem is with the first CD transfer is more more properly stated as “the problem occurred with the first digitalization “, and would only apply if 1) the original master tape wasn’t useable, and 2) the first digital version was being used as the basis for subsequent reissue. We don’t know if this is the case. The Bavarian Radio Orchestra is constantly reissuing old material, most of it concert material, and every thing else I have heard from their archives sounds unexceptionable.
It could be that that Orchestra wasn’t in control of the DG tapes , and that the DG original session tapes, and that the tapes suffered decay and early digital transfers have been used going forward. The other possibility is that the original recording quality just sucks.
Actually after typing all the above, it occurred to me that I should probably read the booklet that accompanied the Blu Ray. I will need to dig up my magnifying glasses.

[richardfinegold]

So the booklet isn’t helpful. It refers you to a web page that doesn’t exist. PureAudio, the company that did the Blu Ray for DG, also has no information