Mahler 10 Refusniks

[Belgrove]

Still, I'll be off to hear Rattle and the LSO perform the four-movement work at the Barbican in April ...

Except its Daniel Harding in December...

http://lso.co.uk/whats-on/icalrepeat.detail/2015/12/16/296/-/bruckner-symphony-no-9

[P. G. Tipps]

Except its Daniel Harding in December...
http://lso.co.uk/whats-on/icalrepeat...-symphony-no-9

You're right ... it's the 8th Rattle's down to conduct in April ... sorry, for mixing up the two ... and Skrow in the 5th at the end of this month!

[richardfinegold]

Any other admirers of the Kurt Sanderling recording here? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...s=music&sr=1-1

This recording with the 'other' Berlin orchestra dates from 1978 and hence uses the 1976 score with additional effective touches from Sanderling himself. Anyone who has it will know it's a revelation while those who haven't still have the pleasure to come.

I am not sure it was ever released here.

[Nick Armstrong]

You're right ... it's the 8th Rattle's down to conduct in April ... sorry, for mixing up the two ... and Skrow in the 5th at the end of this month!

Much looked forward to here!

Rattle in the 8th is quite tempting...

[jayne lee wilson]

Any other admirers of the Kurt Sanderling recording here? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...s=music&sr=1-1

This recording with the 'other' Berlin orchestra dates from 1978 and hence uses the 1976 score with additional effective touches from Sanderling himself. Anyone who has it will know it's a revelation while those who haven't still have the pleasure to come.

Yes, one of the greatest Mahler 10ths of all, I bought it when it came out. I don't listen to the Berlin Classics issue now though - I play this 2014 King Record remaster instead...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00LY9WB9E?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

...as I mentioned on the Runnicles performance thread, this King issue has a drum stroke at the end of the 4th movement AND the beginning of the 5th, on separate tracks. The Berlin Classics has just the one, without a null silence between the tracks. The King remasterers seem to have decided to restore this themselves as it sounds like the identical drum stroke each time!

AS for the quality of the remaster, well... the BC one was already pretty good, but this is....

Get it while it's still cheap.
(I got mine from the ever-reliable Musicjapan).

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, one of the greatest Mahler 10ths of all, I bought it when it came out. I don't listen to the Berlin Classics issue now though - I play this 2014 King Record remaster instead...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00LY9WB9E?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

...as I mentioned on the Runnicles performance thread, this King issue has a drum stroke at the end of the 4th movement AND the beginning of the 5th, on separate tracks. The Berlin Classics has just the one, without a null silence between the tracks. The King remasterers seem to have decided to restore this themselves as it sounds like the identical drum stroke each time!

AS for the quality of the remaster, well... the BC one was already pretty good, but this is....

Get it while it's still cheap.
(I got mine from the ever-reliable Musicjapan).

I bought this earlier this year on your recommendation, on another thread. I've never heard the other issues, but the sound quality on this is superb. More importantly, it's a magnificent performance. And at around £8 including p&p from Musicjapan, who are reliable according to one's experience (not necessarily mine), one should not hesitate.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Any other admirers of the Kurt Sanderling recording here? This recording with the 'other' Berlin orchestra dates from 1978 and hence uses the 1976 score with additional effective touches from Sanderling himself. Anyone who has it will know it's a revelation while those who haven't still have the pleasure to come.

Yes - this is a much more "interventionist" performance than even Rattle's with the BSO. Certainly worth hearing, but a lot of conjecture and notes that don't originate in Mahler's various drafts. (Perfectly acceptable in this sort of work, of course - I disagree with Stephen Johnson's suggestion that it is "too fussy" - but beyond what Cooke & co provided.)

Edit: to be fair(er) to SJ - he used that description as justification for ruling out of the running in his BaL on Mahler #10.


Anybody have any opinions on the non-Cooke editions and their recordings?

[kea]

To check what you are saying here, you should listen to Barshai's realisation to hear how beside the reality this IMO is.

I admit that's an initial impression based on a single listening (to the Rattle/EMI performance which may not be the best one either).

Is the Barshai recommended in a good way, or a "this is how not to do Mahler 10" way? >.>

[Roehre]

I admit that's an initial impression based on a single listening (to the Rattle/EMI performance which may not be the best one either).

Is the Barshai recommended in a good way, or a "this is how not to do Mahler 10" way? >.>

I'd say the Barshai realisation is the way NOT to handle Mahler 10.
He IMO ignores the way Mahler changed his orchestration and instrumentation in LvdE and the Ninth compared with earlier works.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - this is a much more "interventionist" performance than even Rattle's with the BSO. Certainly worth hearing, but a lot of conjecture and notes that don't originate in Mahler's various drafts. (Perfectly acceptable in this sort of work, of course - I disagree with Stephen Johnson's suggestion that it is "too fussy" - but beyond what Cooke & co provided.)

Edit: to be fair(er) to SJ - he used that description as justification for ruling out of the running in his BaL on Mahler #10.

... and described the performance as being one of "great nobility and persuasive power" (21mins into this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01w8b1r

[vibratoforever]

"Gielen, born in 1927 , can hardly be considered one of "the current generation of Mahler conductors", other than by his still being alive.

Do you read what you post before clicking enter? Both tasteless and absurd! He has been retired for less than a year.

So when will Skrowaczewski, who has just conducted a magnificent Bruckner 5 in London, stop being "current"?

[ahinton]

You are correct, I think. 'Disk' is only used in computing and this hardly applies to LPs. Silly me.

I apologise unreservedly for this glaring error but am mightily relieved you spotted it before ahinton ...

However, I do love the opening decisive words on Wiki: 'In computing an optical disc drive (ODD) is a disk drive ... '

So there we have it!

In your post #63 you wrote "For me it's not really about who actually composed a piece of music (however intriguing that may well be) but the music itself?" On that basis, would it really matter to you who spotted your error first?(!)...

[ahinton]

Yes, that is possibly true and as has already been pointed out 'Mahler 10' is really a 'performing' version and not a completion at all in the strict sense.

Bruckner 9 is virtually already complete right up to the vital coda. The trouble is few (if any) composers could finish a symphony as gloriously and triumphantly as Bruckner (whatever one thinks of what went before!), so one must look on any attempt to do so with that in mind. There is at least one Bruckner 9 'completion' which completely ignores the composer's Finale sketches and an entirely new one is used ... of course, the attempt I heard sounded nothing like Bruckner and I never listened to it again.

I'm not sure at the moment which you mean, but there is a thing by one Pieter Jan Marthé that goes under his heading of "Bruckner reloaded" (as though the composer was some kind of gun about to be fired); to describe it as merely execrable would be too kind...

Like many others I do believe the incomplete symphony is somehow complete in itself ending in those last few moments ending in a seemingly serene, dignified acceptance of fate. It simply works even if it is by pure accident.

That's what those people have led themselves to believe and been persuaded to believe as a consequence of decades of performances of only the first three movements; personally, I have always found it difficult to listen to that symphony as it used always to be performed purely because of knowing in advance that I'm going to be left high and dry and short-changed - and with music of that elevated quality, that is a particularly unwelcome experience to have - but never mind me; Bruckner would not have seen it that way because he wanted to complete the work so that people could hear his entire thoughts, not just some of them leading to a false ending!

[ahinton]

Discussing Bruckner 9, Schubert 8, Payne etc is very relevant to the OP.

It is indeed, for all that the extent to which each symphony concerned can be regarded by some as having been "completed" or the extent to which the results can be described by others as "performing versions" (after all, aren't all complete symphonies, whether entirely in their composers' hands or helped to their conclusion in some way by others, "performing versions"?).

The fact that each of these cases is quite different in terms of the approaches that have had to be made by those who have sought to bring them to life in a completed and performable form does nothing to undermine their relevance in the context of the symphony that's the OP here. The Payne is clearly the most problematic - or at least was so for Payne himself - because only the first page and a half was fully orchestrated by Elgar; the nature of the detective work and the need somehow to effect some kind of connection with the composer as he was in his dying weeks (more than two years before Payne was even born) sets Payne's work apart from the cases of Mahler 10, Bruckner 9 et al, except for the fact that he shared a common motivation with all the others who have worked on these projects - namely that of bring a viable and convincing completion to fruition. Indeed, the only real difference between Payne and the others is that, when he finally set to work on Elgar 3 (having already lived with the sketches for some years), he had no intention of trying to complete the symphony because he didn't believe this to be possible - but then eventually fate and his perception and imagination took over.

[gradus]

The recent Nezet-Seguin recording is compelling and very well recorded and can be heard on Spotify.