Mahler 10 Refusniks

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  • Beef Oven!
    Ex-member
    • Sep 2013
    • 18147

    Mahler 10 Refusniks

    I avoid listening to stand-alone first movements of M10, normally viewing them as superfluous cd fillers. But this evening I read the 2004 Guardian item on the symphony and was intrigued by the following:

    "Before his death, Mahler finished the orchestration of the opening Adagio, which was first performed as a fragment in 1924. Alma was ambivalent, however, as to whether she would permit the symphony to be completed, eventually offering the task to Schoenberg, who turned it down. She initially objected to Deryck Cooke's now familiar version, only permitting a performance of extracts as a "lecture demonstration" in 1960, though in 1963, two years before her death, she withdrew her ban. Since then, completions of the Tenth have proliferated, though Cooke's revised edition, first heard in 1972, is most frequently used in performance. Even here, controversy won't die down. Many conductors have refused to perform the completed score."

    I'd never picked up on a 'refusal' but how do we explain how many conductors never did perform or record a completion?

    As I type I'm listening to Giuseppe Sinopoli's wonderful stand-alone first movement, and for the first time I am comfortable with just the adagio. Perhaps having listened to an awful lot of Webern in the last couple of weeks I'm less disposed to longer works at the moment.

    Does anyone know of any conductors who have said anything definite about not being willing to perm a completion? It's a bit of a blind spot as far as I'm concerned. I'm not even sure of who has not been inclined to perform it - did Lenny ever perform it, for example?
  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    #2
    I can't give chapter and verse re. how he came to change his mind but one conductor who for decades refused to perform Cooke's, or anyone else's performing version of the sketches for the full symphony is Michael Gielen. Indeed, when his recorded survey of the symphonies was boxed up, only the opening Adagio was represented. However, a few years later he did a volte-face and conducted and recorded a Cooke performing version of the full work.

    Comment

    • Petrushka
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 12253

      #3
      Among celebrated Mahler conductors of the past, neither Bernstein, Abbado, Haitink nor Solti either performed or recorded the completed 10th and, as far as I know, deliberately refused to do so. Only Kurt Sanderling of the older generation recorded it (superb performance by the way). It is really the current generation of Mahler conductors, particularly Rattle, Harding and Chailly who have taken the work on and with whom it has become an accepted part of the Mahler canon.. For me, the 'coming of age' of the completed symphony came in 2009 with Chailly's Prom performance, a searing, unforgettable account that made me wish that the likes of Abbado and Haitink had taken it on.

      I doubt if Haitink has changed his mind over the years. A pity as I feel he would have given us something special but it's his decision.

      Incidentally, Deryck Cooke called his completion a 'performing version' and was careful to avoid the c-word.
      "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

      Comment

      • Bryn
        Banned
        • Mar 2007
        • 24688

        #4
        Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
        Among celebrated Mahler conductors of the past, neither Bernstein, Abbado, Haitink nor Solti either performed or recorded the completed 10th and, as far as I know, deliberately refused to do so. Only Kurt Sanderling of the older generation recorded it (superb performance by the way). It is really the current generation of Mahler conductors, particularly Rattle, Harding and Chailly who have taken the work on and with whom it has become an accepted part of the Mahler canon.. For me, the 'coming of age' of the completed symphony came in 2009 with Chailly's Prom performance, a searing, unforgettable account that made me wish that the likes of Abbado and Haitink had taken it on.

        I doubt if Haitink has changed his mind over the years. A pity as I feel he would have given us something special but it's his decision.

        Incidentally, Deryck Cooke called his completion a 'performing version' and was careful to avoid the c-word.
        While I find much to admire in Chailly's versions of the sketches, I do baulk at his turning the funereal bass drum strokes of the transition from teh 4th to 5th movements into rolls.

        Gielen, born in 1927 , can hardly be considered one of "the current generation of Mahler conductors", other than by his still being alive.

        Comment

        • Roehre

          #5
          Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
          ....

          I doubt if Haitink has changed his mind over the years. A pity as I feel he would have given us something special but it's his decision.

          ....
          Haitink is still very suspicious about the "completeness" of the Adagio. In his opinion there are too many "open spaces", especially in the brass and wind sections. But he accepts it is Mahler. Solti AFAIK not even performed the Adagio.

          Comment

          • Nick Armstrong
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 26538

            #6
            Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
            I'd never picked up on a 'refusal' but how do we explain how many conductors never did perform or record a completion?
            ...

            Does anyone know of any conductors who have said anything definite about not being willing to perm a completion?
            Yes! My only conversation with Claudio Abbado was about this!

            His limo was late after a concert (we're talking early 80s I think) and my ride was late too, and we were both hanging around at the back of the RFH, so I went over, tried not to loom over him, and complimented him on the concert (which had been Mahler I assume), and asked would he ever be performing the full 10th - 'No' was the very definite answer, and when I asked why he said because the completion isn't Mahler - for the same reason, he would never perform a completed Schubert unfinished, Bruckner 9... (I think he also mentioned the Mozart Requiem - he must have recanted, as he did do so later, was it the Sussmayer version?)
            "...the isle is full of noises,
            Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
            Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
            Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

            Comment

            • Barbirollians
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 11694

              #7
              Originally posted by Roehre View Post
              Haitink is still very suspicious about the "completeness" of the Adagio. In his opinion there are too many "open spaces", especially in the brass and wind sections. But he accepts it is Mahler. Solti AFAIK not even performed the Adagio.
              I thought that Alma performed her volte face after hearing a tape of Berthold Goldschmidt's pioneering performance of the Cooke completion ?

              Comment

              • Roehre

                #8
                Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                I thought that Alma performed her volte face after hearing a tape of Berthold Goldschmidt's pioneering performance of the Cooke completion ?
                Yes, that convinced her the Tenth was worth to be heard

                Comment

                • Beef Oven!
                  Ex-member
                  • Sep 2013
                  • 18147

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                  Yes! My only conversation with Claudio Abbado was about this!

                  His limo was late after a concert (we're talking early 80s I think) and my ride was late too, and we were both hanging around at the back of the RFH, so I went over, tried not to loom over him, and complimented him on the concert (which had been Mahler I assume), and asked would he ever be performing the full 10th - 'No' was the very definite answer, and when I asked why he said because the completion isn't Mahler - for the same reason, he would never perform a completed Schubert unfinished, Bruckner 9... (I think he also mentioned the Mozart Requiem - he must have recanted, as he did do so later, was it the Sussmayer version?)
                  Great anecdote

                  Comment

                  • cloughie
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 22127

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                    Yes! My only conversation with Claudio Abbado was about this!

                    His limo was late after a concert (we're talking early 80s I think) and my ride was late too, and we were both hanging around at the back of the RFH, so I went over, tried not to loom over him, and complimented him on the concert (which had been Mahler I assume), and asked would he ever be performing the full 10th - 'No' was the very definite answer, and when I asked why he said because the completion isn't Mahler - for the same reason, he would never perform a completed Schubert unfinished, Bruckner 9... (I think he also mentioned the Mozart Requiem - he must have recanted, as he did do so later, was it the Sussmayer version?)
                    A man with purist approach. He probably thought there was enough genuine stuff around not to bother with the made up and might have been. I like it - he would I imagine have had no time for the Payne Elgar-based symphony but then he didn't do 1 or 2 anyway.
                    Kubelik was another great Mahlerian who stuck to the adagio.
                    Not many conductors did Blumine - now there is a beautiful little piece!

                    Comment

                    • jayne lee wilson
                      Banned
                      • Jul 2011
                      • 10711

                      #11
                      Another young gun goes for it...

                      Listen to Yannick Nézet-Séguin in unlimited on Qobuz and buy the albums in Hi-Res 24-Bit for an unequalled sound quality. Subscription from £10.83/month


                      Going out tonight, Radio 3 19:30 hrs....



                      I couldn't imagine my life without "Mahler's 10th" .... I wonder if the conductor-refuseniks ever actually listened to any recordings? Didn't they know about Alma's response?
                      Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 29-09-15, 02:49.

                      Comment

                      • ahinton
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 16122

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                        Another young gun goes for it...

                        Listen to Yannick Nézet-Séguin in unlimited on Qobuz and buy the albums in Hi-Res 24-Bit for an unequalled sound quality. Subscription from £10.83/month


                        Going out tonight, Radio 3 19:30 hrs....



                        I couldn't imagine my life without "Mahler's 10th" .... I wonder if the conductor-refuseniks ever actually listened to any recordings? Didn't they know about Alma's response?
                        I couldn't imagine mine without it either; after all, it's not as though Cooke et al had to compose much of it, since Mahler had written at least something right up to the end, making it a very different case to Elgar/Payne 3 whose realisation relied upon what must surely be an unique amalgam of musicological knowledge and understanding, composerly expertise, intuition and patience.

                        I don't know how often the Payne's performed these days but I recall attending its 100th outing before a capacity audience in Hereford Cathedral during the 2000 Three Choirs Festival.

                        Bruckner 9 is already becoming something of a mystery. Despite several performances of various versions of the developing finale over time and the splendid Rattle performance of the latest revision of that movement (and Rattle's never been especially known as a Brucknerian), most performances today are still of the frustratingly truncated three movement version, to which I've always found it hard to listen because I simply cannot face the prospect of being short-changed - and, in any case, it's also likel listening to a performance of it that falls short of the composer's intentions. Years ago, legend had it that Bruckner had only written a handful of tiny sketches for the final of his final symphony but, as time has passed, more and more material in the composer's hand has materialised and it's not entirely impossible that yet more again might turn up. I don't understand why so very many conductors - more, I think, than in the case of Mahler 10 - have put themselves firmly in that refusenik category where this great symphyony is concerned.

                        Comment

                        • Beef Oven!
                          Ex-member
                          • Sep 2013
                          • 18147

                          #13
                          Interesting that 'young gun' Yannick Nezet-Seguin has gone for the a reconstruction of Mahler 10 (is it only available as a download? I couldn't see a cd on Amazon), but opts for the three movement Bruckner 9, both in recording and performance.

                          Performance: https://bachtrack.com/review-lpo-nez...mphony-te-deum

                          Recording: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Sym...k+nezet+seguin

                          Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                          Another young gun goes for it...

                          Listen to Yannick Nézet-Séguin in unlimited on Qobuz and buy the albums in Hi-Res 24-Bit for an unequalled sound quality. Subscription from £10.83/month


                          Going out tonight, Radio 3 19:30 hrs....



                          I couldn't imagine my life without "Mahler's 10th" .... I wonder if the conductor-refuseniks ever actually listened to any recordings? Didn't they know about Alma's response?

                          Comment

                          • Beef Oven!
                            Ex-member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 18147

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ahinton View Post

                            Bruckner 9 is already becoming something of a mystery. Despite several performances of various versions of the developing finale over time and the splendid Rattle performance of the latest revision of that movement (and Rattle's never been especially known as a Brucknerian), most performances today are still of the frustratingly truncated three movement version, to which I've always found it hard to listen because I simply cannot face the prospect of being short-changed - and, in any case, it's also likel listening to a performance of it that falls short of the composer's intentions. Years ago, legend had it that Bruckner had only written a handful of tiny sketches for the final of his final symphony but, as time has passed, more and more material in the composer's hand has materialised and it's not entirely impossible that yet more again might turn up. I don't understand why so very many conductors - more, I think, than in the case of Mahler 10 - have put themselves firmly in that refusenik category where this great symphyony is concerned.
                            Perhaps a contributing factor is that a performing and recording tradition of Bruckner 9 had developed before a reconstructed fourth movement had come about. Whereas with Mahler 10, there was no such tradition to contend with.

                            Comment

                            • DublinJimbo
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 1222

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
                              Interesting that 'young gun' Yannick Nezet-Seguin has gone for the a reconstruction of Mahler 10 (is it only available as a download? I couldn't see a cd on Amazon)]

                              Comment

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