Bruckner

[Barbirollians]

I have always assumed that Hitler liked Bruckner because of the Wagnerian influences . Its grandiosity perhaps .

On a more interesting point I see Andris Nelsons recording of Bruckner 3 is due to be released in early May - not apparent from Amazon which edition it is however.

[ahinton]

That is blindingly obvious of course, anyone who uses that as a "reason" to reject (or for that matter to admire) Bruckner's music is not using their intelligence.

But while it has nothing to do with the "worth" of his music it does have to do with the reception history of his music, which we are still part of, however much we might imagine our tastes and preferences are unrelated to anyone else's. And there must have been a reason why Bruckner's music was favoured by AH, just as there must have been a reason why vegetarianism was favoured by him, whatever that might be, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away. Personally I love Bruckner's music, and Wagner's too, and I accept that both of them were complex characters, like all of us, whose music involves many often contradictory levels, which don't cease to evolve upon the composer's death but whose meaning keeps changing and ramifying as time goes on.

Indeed. There's no need to ignore the matter of why AH favoured Bruckner's music, but the way to address that subject is to try to consider what the reasons for this might have been rather than making these rather puerile and unenlightening "Nazi" comments about Bruckner as a few seem to prefer to do. This AH feels the same way about Bruckner's and Wagner's music and likewise accepts that they were each complex characters (indeed, it would be hard to do otherwise), but I do wonder if Wagner was politically somewhat naïve and Bruckner less politically interested and committed than many of his contemporaries.

By the same token, whilst not blind to Florent Schmitt's involvement with the deplorable Vichy régime during WWII (along with Cortot, Canteloube and other French musicians), of which there can sadly be no doubt, my love of his remarkable Piano Quintet from more than three decades earlier remains undimmed...

[P. G. Tipps]

And there must have been a reason why Bruckner's music was favoured by AH, just as there must have been a reason why vegetarianism was favoured by him, whatever that might be, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Well, the obvious reason is that Hitler just loved Bruckner's music ...

The other possibility is that B. came from the same area of Austria and H. was very proud of that as citizens of Bonn might be proud of Beethoven ?.

And, another thing that seemingly won't go away, is, of course, that poor old B. simply fitted the vile Nazi narrative of being a product of pure Aryan 'peasant stock'.

Or maybe just a mixture of all of these things ...

One can easily understand why the Nazis promoted Bruckner's music but it's much less easy to understand why some 21st Century music critics still appear to continue to swallow 20th Century Nazi propaganda about a 19th Century composer!

[cloughie]

By the same token, whilst not blind to Florent Schmitt's involvement with the deplorable Vichy régime during WWII (along with Cortot, Canteloube and other French musicians), of which there can sadly be no doubt, my love of his remarkable Piano Quintet from more than three decades earlier remains undimmed...

...Tragedie de Salome is wonderful!

[Richard Barrett]

some 21st Century music critics still appear to continue to swallow 20th Century Nazi propaganda about a 19th Century composer!

And your actual examples of that would be...? The NY Times article contains, near its end, the words: "It’s music to go to battle to — and the Nazis did, making Bruckner the star of their weekly classical broadcasts in the latter years of World War II." Is this true or not? Should be easy enough to check. I know for a fact that the slow movement of the 7th was played on the radio after AH's death was announced. Where is the propaganda you speak of?

[P. G. Tipps]

And your actual examples of that would be...? The NY Times article contains, near its end, the words: "It’s music to go to battle to — and the Nazis did, making Bruckner the star of their weekly classical broadcasts in the latter years of World War II." Is this true or not? Should be easy enough to check. I know for a fact that the slow movement of the 7th was played on the radio after AH's death was announced. Where is the propaganda you speak of?

Well, you've just highlighted probably the most widely-known example ...

Oh yes, we've all seen The World at War, and the WWII newsreels of Nazi troops absurdly goose-stepping to B's music.

Ironically, from what I heard, we should also now be 'blaming' poor old Franz Schalk as much as poor old B. !

[Richard Barrett]

So where is the propaganda you speak of? Oh hang on, it's PGT, no point in continuing with this...

[richardfinegold]

Although it has been many years since I have read them, I remember several positive references to Bruckner and his music in the books of Albert Speer (Inside the Third Reich, and Spandau Diaries). Speer was Hitler's Architect, Director of Armament Production, and is widely considered to have been Hitler's best friend. Speer would be present at many of Hitler's interminable night talks where he kept his Inner circle captive with repetitive stories and philosophies.
Much of that conversation was recorded by Martin Bormann and has been published as Hitler's Table Talk. I read that more recently and remember the Bruckner references as being similar to my remembrances of Speer's remarks

[P. G. Tipps]

So where is the propaganda you speak of? Oh hang on, it's PGT, no point in continuing with this...

That is entirely up to you ...

You know perfectly well that the Nazis outrageously claimed certain composers, Bruckner among them, and used their work as part of their political propaganda.

My irritation (clearly shared by others) is that some modern music critics still seem to suggest, as you also appear to have done, that at least part of the fault for this lies in the music itself. That to me is arrant nonsense and I repeat my point (though I obviously do not include yourself in this) that the completely one-sided 'Nazi' connection is often used by those who have a general aversion to the music.

Many of Bruckner's disciples and devotees were Jewish and indeed they were often the most fanatical in his support. That is still true to this day. We never read or hear much about that. The frequent connection (okay, I'll drop the adjective 'constant' if you prefer) made with the composer and the Nazis in a concert review is a bit like associating Mother Theresa with Donald Trump when discussing care of the sick and underprivileged.

Ridiculous!

[ahinton]

...Tragedie de Salome is wonderful!

Indeed it is - as is also Psaume XLVII.

[Alain Maréchal]

whilst not blind to Florent Schmitt's involvement with the deplorable Vichy régime during WWII (along with Cortot, Canteloube and other French musicians), of which there can sadly be no doubt, my love of his remarkable Piano Quintet from more than three decades earlier remains undimmed...

I feel I should point out that there is one common and crucial misconception about the régime. (I make no excuses for it, but I live there and am giving a little assistance with some research into the still confusing past - there was a great bonfire of documents when the cabinet left.) The Pétain regime was the official government of the entire country, not only the occupied zone, and pre-existing ministries continued their work as before, sometimes remaining in Paris. It is often said that works were "commissioned by the Pétain regime" when in fact they were commissioned by ministries in the ordinary way, often pre-dating a move from Paris. This misconception, even in France, clouded the obsequies of Henri Dutilleux.

On the subject of AH's musical tastes, Speer states that musical evenings (on records) at Berchtesgarden often began with Wagner, but after a few sides operettas and musical comedies were preferred.

[Richard Barrett]

On the subject of AH's musical tastes, Speer states that musical evenings (on records) at Berchtesgarden often began with Wagner, but after a few sides operettas and musical comedies were preferred.

That is what I understood too.

AH's relationship to Bruckner certainly changed over the years. After not paying him much attention until the 1930s, his enthusiasm then grew and it became "a fixed part of the Nuremberg rallies for the cultural session to open with a movement from one of his symphonies". Even so, "Bruckner's symphonies were performed less frequently in the Third Reich than they had been in the Weimar period." These quotations are from pp230-33 of Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics by Fredric Spotts, which I think must be the most authoritative work on the subject. Spotts is of the opinion that AH's support of Bruckner (personally funding the publication of Haas's editions for example) was largely symbolic, in that he saw Bruckner, shunned in Vienna just like he felt himself to have been, as a contrast to Brahms, who was lionised there and was (AH's own words) "praised to the heavens by Jewry". In other words it had (as I've been saying) less to do with Bruckner's music and more to do with the way that Bruckner could be used as a musical symbol of someone else emerging from lowly Austrian Catholic origins to do heroic deeds. But if Bruckner's music didn't actually admit of that kind of "heroic" interpretation it couldn't have been coopted in that way. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about this. Even if Schoenberg or Mahler hadn't been Jewish, the fundamental equivocation in their music wouldn't have allowed it to be treated as Bruckner's was.

[Richard Tarleton]

On the subject of AH's musical tastes, Speer states that musical evenings (on records) at Berchtesgarden often began with Wagner, but after a few sides operettas and musical comedies were preferred.

He was particularly fond, was he not, of The Merry Widow, or at least of Vijla? - sung here by Lucia Popp. What this tells us I'm not sure - that he had a sentimental side?

[ahinton]

That is what I understood too.

AH's relationship to Bruckner certainly changed over the years. After not paying him much attention until the 1930s, his enthusiasm then grew and it became "a fixed part of the Nuremberg rallies for the cultural session to open with a movement from one of his symphonies". Even so, "Bruckner's symphonies were performed less frequently in the Third Reich than they had been in the Weimar period." These quotations are from pp230-33 of Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics by Fredric Spotts, which I think must be the most authoritative work on the subject. Spotts is of the opinion that AH's support of Bruckner (personally funding the publication of Haas's editions for example) was largely symbolic, in that he saw Bruckner, shunned in Vienna just like he felt himself to have been, as a contrast to Brahms, who was lionised there and was (AH's own words) "praised to the heavens by Jewry". In other words it had (as I've been saying) less to do with Bruckner's music and more to do with the way that Bruckner could be used as a musical symbol of someone else emerging from lowly Austrian Catholic origins to do heroic deeds. But if Bruckner's music didn't actually admit of that kind of "heroic" interpretation it couldn't have been coopted in that way. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about this. Even if Schoenberg or Mahler hadn't been Jewish, the fundamental equivocation in their music wouldn't have allowed it to be treated as Bruckner's was.

Fair comments all, except that I retain doubts about "But if Bruckner's music didn't actually admit of that kind of "heroic" interpretation it couldn't have been coopted in that way"; the problem with this seems to me to be in the fact that people can choose to interpret what they want to about any music, reasonably or otherwise and sometimes for the purpose of suiting their agendas. To be certain about this, there would need, I think, to be broad agreement - not only between those who admire Bruckner's music but also among those who don't - on the specifics of what it was in at least a substantial proportion of Bruckner's music that must "admit of that kind of "heroic" interpretation".

[P. G. Tipps]

I have always assumed that Hitler liked Bruckner because of the Wagnerian influences . Its grandiosity perhaps .

On a more interesting point I see Andris Nelsons recording of Bruckner 3 is due to be released in early May - not apparent from Amazon which edition it is however.

Nelsons conducted a stunning Third with the BPO in Berlin almost exactly a year ago to genuinely 'rapturous applause'.

He used the 1889 (Nowak) version ... and made as good a case for it as I've yet heard ...