Bruckner

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • RichardB
    Banned
    • Nov 2021
    • 2170

    Originally posted by Flay View Post
    Thanks for your replies. I'm sure he had reasons for such a contrast between the main theme and the trio beside a summation and exploration of his previous works.
    Of course. He may not even have done it consciously. The musical evolution will have taken on a life and momentum of its own, and we can see throughout the cycle of the symphonies a sense of each continuing from the previous one. In general there's a movement towards a greater complexity of form, greater contrast between materials, and distillation of materials, as previously mentioned. Personally I don't hear this music in terms of concrete images and specific emotions that can be described in words. Maybe it's me that's missing something, but I have a lot of time for Susan Sontag's essay "Against Interpretation" from 1964 in which she says:

    Interpretation takes the sensory experience of the work of art for granted, and proceeds from there. This cannot be taken for granted, now. Think of the sheer multiplication of works of art available to every one of us, superadded to the conflicting tastes and odors and sights of the urban environment that bombard our senses. Ours is a culture based on excess, on overproduction; the result is a steady loss of sharpness in our sensory experience. All the conditions of modern life—its material plenitude, its sheer crowdedness—conjoin to dull our sensory faculties.

    What is important now is to recover our senses. We must learn to see more, to hear more, to feel more. Our task is not to find the maximum amount of content in a work of art, much less to squeeze more content out of the work than is already there. Our task is to cut back content so that we can see the thing at all. The aim of all commentary on art now should be to make works of art—and, by analogy, our own experience—more, rather than less, real to us. The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.
    I would say these points have only gained relevance in the half century since they were made!

    Comment

    • Joseph K
      Banned
      • Oct 2017
      • 7765

      Thanks for the Susan Sonntag quote. It's a bit of a head-scratcher for me trying to figure out how one can squeeze content out of a work! This:

      The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.
      ... translated into musical terms seems to me to circumscribe criticism to the role of technical description or analysis.

      Comment

      • RichardB
        Banned
        • Nov 2021
        • 2170

        Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
        ... translated into musical terms seems to me to circumscribe criticism to the role of technical description or analysis.
        I don't think that's what she was getting at, I think she was heading more in a phenomenological direction.

        Comment

        • silvestrione
          Full Member
          • Jan 2011
          • 1700

          'The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.'

          Love it. Close to Matthew Arnold, 'to see the object as in itself it really is'...

          Comment

          • Joseph K
            Banned
            • Oct 2017
            • 7765

            Originally posted by RichardB View Post
            I don't think that's what she was getting at, I think she was heading more in a phenomenological direction.
            Well, it's possible she didn't have music in mind, where 'what it means' might possibly be very abstract rather than the generally more concrete realms of visual art or literature.

            Phenomenology is of interest to me, or at least it is in theory, I haven't read much or at all about it - I have read about Consciousness though, which is related. I wonder how one might go about applying phenomenology to the study of music.

            Comment

            • smittims
              Full Member
              • Aug 2022
              • 4086

              Have you read Anthony Storr's 'Music and the Mind' JosephK? YOu might find something there.

              Comment

              • Joseph K
                Banned
                • Oct 2017
                • 7765

                Originally posted by smittims View Post
                Have you read Anthony Storr's 'Music and the Mind' JosephK? YOu might find something there.
                I have that book. To my chagrin, I haven't yet read it.

                Comment

                • RichardB
                  Banned
                  • Nov 2021
                  • 2170

                  Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
                  I wonder how one might go about applying phenomenology to the study of music.
                  There's a (depressingly) large literature on that issue. Actually my previous post was I think the first time I've ever used the word "phenomenology" in a musical context without criticising it as pretentious...

                  Comment

                  • Ein Heldenleben
                    Full Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 6754

                    Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                    There's a (depressingly) large literature on that issue. Actually my previous post was I think the first time I've ever used the word "phenomenology" in a musical context without criticising it as pretentious...
                    It’s a good word that. Every time someone uses it I have to look it up along with heuristic , hermetic and hermeneutical though I think I’ve now nailed the first.

                    Comment

                    • Ein Heldenleben
                      Full Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 6754

                      Originally posted by silvestrione View Post
                      'The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.'

                      Love it. Close to Matthew Arnold, 'to see the object as in itself it really is'...
                      Arnold also believed that some artistic works were better than others and it was the job of the critic to sort the wheat from the chaff. That type of criticism is now sadly out of favour though the majority of posters on these threads more or less tread in his footsteps. In fact the Building a Library thread might be the last hurrah of the Arnoldian/ Leavisite / Bloomian approach…

                      Comment

                      • smittims
                        Full Member
                        • Aug 2022
                        • 4086

                        Ah yes, see Richard Hoggart and 'cultural relativism'.

                        Comment

                        • RichardB
                          Banned
                          • Nov 2021
                          • 2170

                          Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                          It’s a good word that. Every time someone uses it I have to look it up along with heuristic , hermetic and hermeneutical though I think I’ve now nailed the first.
                          I know exactly what you mean - and then you look it up and think, is that really all there is to it? - and then soon afterwards forget it once again.

                          Comment

                          • silvestrione
                            Full Member
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 1700

                            Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                            Arnold also believed that some artistic works were better than others and it was the job of the critic to sort the wheat from the chaff. That type of criticism is now sadly out of favour though the majority of posters on these threads more or less tread in his footsteps. In fact the Building a Library thread might be the last hurrah of the Arnoldian/ Leavisite / Bloomian approach…
                            Really off-thread now, but Terry Eagleton's new book, Critical Revolutionaries, has a pretty good go at restating the rationale for it....

                            Comment

                            • ahinton
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 16122

                              Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                              I know exactly what you mean - and then you look it up and think, is that really all there is to it? - and then soon afterwards forget it once again.
                              I'm relieved that it's not just me!...

                              Comment

                              • Joseph K
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2017
                                • 7765

                                Originally posted by silvestrione View Post
                                Really off-thread now, but Terry Eagleton's new book, Critical Revolutionaries, has a pretty good go at restating the rationale for it....
                                I like what I've read of him, might have to add that book to the list...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X