Bruckner

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, I know; I was born in Liverpool, though being at a rugby-playing six-day-week secondary school rather precluded being able to get to their (or anyone else's) matches.

I guess logistically it made sense to keep the spectators there, but at first I wondered why they were not spread out over the whole stadium.

I didn't say that! You asked if they bothered me in the same way as Bruckner, and I replied that they don't. I had Schubert 9 on only the other day!
And his fifth and eighth recently too, for that matter.
Please don't feel sad on my account.

Well, you said that "they're not high on my listening agenda"..... so I don't think I was unfair......but both are truly great and broke new ground.... their influence on later symphonic structures was profound....

Schumann called his 1841 original 4th a "Symphony in One Movement"......just think of where that led...!......
Perhaps as well that Bruckner never composed one as such, yet some of the longer movements are indeed almost symphonies in themselves.

[Richard Barrett]

I've been reading the comments of those who have expressed their love of Bruckner's music, and they often seem to be listeners who had the advantage of becoming acquainted with it early on in their listening experience. This may well be the defining factor in my problem with Bruckner.

I don't really see why that ought to make such a difference. I mentioned previously the strong integration between orchestration and structure that's a defining feature of his style, certainly from no.3 onwards, made possible by a conception of form in terms of the addition and subtraction of layers which are often distinguished by different speeds. This is a highly progressive feature of Bruckner's music which actually left little trace in the work of subsequent composers until much more recently (for example Stockhausen after the mid-70s, although whether this feature comes directly from Bruckner isn't clear), although it does have parallels in traditional musics of Indonesia and Japan of which Bruckner was presumably completely unaware. So this is a feature of Bruckner which seems to place it at a remove from most 19th century orchestral music, as do the frequent stretches of harmonic stasis (coupled usually with textural/contrapuntal activity) already mentioned here. There's always a mixture of sophistication and simplicity that in retrospect seems much more "modern" than he's usually given credit for, a radical way of dealing with his antecedents and his own time that's quite unique. I mention these things as potentially appealing to someone with the kinds of preferences you yourself have!

[jayne lee wilson]

When you put it like that, my path ahead is clear! What some folk might (quite wrongly, of course) see as a possibly somewhat patronising suggestion has in fact given me an idea for a new thread that might help me and others who, like me, have received official confirmation that their time here is limited and they therefore have to make choices - which can sometimes be horribly cruel - as to how to make the most, musically speaking, of their remaining years.

I've faced death myself.... in hospital, the night before.... more than once. I've cared for others, humans and beloved animals, through to their last moments...

All our lifetimes are limited, and the sense of mortality grows more immediate as we age. Among all the composers I love, surely Bruckner speaks the most profoundly of last things....

Peace be with you as you find your way ahead....

[Flay]

rathfarnhamgirl, try listening to this episode of Discovering Music on the 9th: https://youtu.be/0i-QqJAnPZU

or on the 6th: https://youtu.be/OPBTEd0K34Q

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't really see why that ought to make such a difference. I mentioned previously the strong integration between orchestration and structure that's a defining feature of his style, certainly from no.3 onwards, made possible by a conception of form in terms of the addition and subtraction of layers which are often distinguished by different speeds. This is a highly progressive feature of Bruckner's music which actually left little trace in the work of subsequent composers until much more recently (for example Stockhausen after the mid-70s, although whether this feature comes directly from Bruckner isn't clear), although it does have parallels in traditional musics of Indonesia and Japan of which Bruckner was presumably completely unaware. So this is a feature of Bruckner which seems to place it at a remove from most 19th century orchestral music, as do the frequent stretches of harmonic stasis (coupled usually with textural/contrapuntal activity) already mentioned here. There's always a mixture of sophistication and simplicity that in retrospect seems much more "modern" than he's usually given credit for, a radical way of dealing with his antecedents and his own time that's quite unique. I mention these things as potentially appealing to someone with the kinds of preferences you yourself have!

Sure! Without intending to, you actually raise another "problem" for me - of Bruckner "not fitting in" with my overall picture of 19th century music, and how it feeds on - while now enticingly suggesting a solution!

[Serial_Apologist]

rathfarnhamgirl, try listening to this episode of Discovering Music on the 9th: https://youtu.be/0i-QqJAnPZU

or on the 6th: https://youtu.be/OPBTEd0K34Q

I'll try it too, when I've got... a moment!

[Flay]

....when I've got... a moment!

Tell me about it!

Actually after the programme about the 9th I found a talk on the 8th (not as well written, but worth a listen) https://youtu.be/2ypkZTrmWVU

... if you can find the time

[Serial_Apologist]

Tell me about it!

Actually after the programme about the 9th I found a talk on the 8th (not as well written, but worth a listen) https://youtu.be/2ypkZTrmWVU

... if you can find the time

Thanks, Flay!

[HighlandDougie]

Don't give up. I only knowingly encountered Bruckner in my mid-50s, introduced initially to the 8th through the former R3 forum, and shortly afterwards in a performance of it at the Bridgewater Hall under Wand. Addicted since.

I hesitate to enter this discussion but Flay's experience of "getting" Bruckner after hearing it in the flesh makes a good point. Music should ideally be heard live but, for me, that applies particularly to Bruckner symphonies (and Mahler - and Elgar). Trying to come to terms with Bruckner's eighth on the basis of Horenstein's ancient Vox recording might well put one off Bruckner for life. But hearing it live where it becomes a visceral as much as an intellectual experience was also for me a completely transformative experience.

If I could, I would book Rathfarnhamgirl on a flight to, let's say, the Concertgebouw where Bernie would have been persuaded out of retirement to conduct the 7th. Then let the music unfold - let the silences speak - and wonder at it. I think that I could probably live without ever hearing a Mahler symphony again (the songs are a different matter) but Bruckner? Never to hear one of his symphonies again would be ... well, I can't think of anything suitably distressing.

[jayne lee wilson]

Keep meaning to link to this......

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambridge-Companion-Bruckner-Companions-Music/dp/0521008786/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36NG8L4SCD66F&dchild=1&keywords=cambridge+companion+to+bruckner&qid=1608231962&sprefix=bruckner+company%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1

The best single guide I've come across to just about everything Brucknerian.....not just the music itself and how it works, but excellent chapters on "Conductors and Bruckner", "The Image of Bruckner" and so on..... uptodate (or almost) on Editions as well...

Take a gander at the contents and see if it appeals....

[Petrushka]

Never to hear one of his symphonies again would be ... well, I can't think of anything suitably distressing.

After the end of Haitink's wonderful VPO Bruckner 7 Prom on September 3 2019 as the audience were dispersing and the orchestra were packing away their instruments, I just stood quietly by the Albert Hall stage for several minutes taking in the scene as a sort of premonition came over me that this might be my last concert, or at any rate my last Prom.

I really don't know where this feeling came from but so far I'm afraid it's true. That was the last concert I attended!

[Alison]

After the end of Haitink's wonderful VPO Bruckner 7 Prom on September 3 2019 as the audience were dispersing and the orchestra were packing away their instruments, I just stood quietly by the Albert Hall stage for several minutes taking in the scene as a sort of premonition came over me that this might be my last concert, or at any rate my last Prom.

I really don't know where this feeling came from but so far I'm afraid it's true. That was the last concert I attended!

Not a bad one to bow out with, Pet!!

[kernelbogey]

Keep meaning to link to this......

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambridge-Companion-Bruckner-Companions-Music/dp/0521008786/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36NG8L4SCD66F&dchild=1&keywords=cambridge+companion+to+bruckner&qid=1608231962&sprefix=bruckner+company%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1

The best single guide I've come across to just about everything Brucknerian.....not just the music itself and how it works, but excellent chapters on "Conductors and Bruckner", "The Image of Bruckner" and so on..... uptodate (or almost) on Editions as well...

Take a gander at the contents and see if it appeals....

Jayne - could you very kindly give author and title of this book for this Brucknerian (and others) who refuse(s) to canoe in South American river waters.

[Richard Barrett]

Jayne - could you very kindly give author and title of this book for this Brucknerian (and others) who refuse(s) to canoe in South American river waters.

It's the Cambridge Companion to Bruckner, by multiple authors. I would recommend it highly also. It's the most interesting single book on the music I've come across.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne - could you very kindly give author and title of this book for this Brucknerian (and others) who refuse(s) to canoe in South American river waters.

"The Cambridge Companion to Bruckner, edited by John Williamson. CUP 2004."