Bruckner

[Mario]

I would keep going : knowledge is always worth acquiring. I haven’t done it for years but even just doing simple four part harmonisation is , I think good exercise for the brain - particularly if you try and stick to the rules .But the truth is you don’t need academic training to be a composer and you certainly don’t need it to be a Paul McCartney ..

OK, good advice as usual Heldenleben. You continue to motivate me.

By 4-part harmonisation, I assume you mean take a simple theme, and under simple basic SATB rules harmonise for a choir?

Sorry for the deviation off Bruckner.

Mario

[Ein Heldenleben]

OK, good advice as usual Heldenleben. You continue to motivate me.

By 4-part harmonisation, I assume you mean take a simple theme, and under simple basic SATB rules harmonise for a choir?

Sorry for the deviation off Bruckner.

Mario

Yes those sub Bach chorales you used to have to fill in at O level which had to include , if memory serves , an imperfect cadence , a modulation away and back to tonic , no doubled thirds or consecutive octaves or fifths . Quite an intellectual challenge but rules that great composers break every day. Bruckner would doubtless have been superb at them - he was a magnificent choral writer - not all symphonists are.

[Mario]

Yes those sub Bach chorales you used to have to fill in at O level which had to include , if memory serves , an imperfect cadence , a modulation away and back to tonic , no doubled thirds or consecutive octaves or fifths . Quite an intellectual challenge but rules that great composers break every day. Bruckner would doubtless have been superb at them - he was a magnificent choral writer - not all symphonists are.

Got it! Thanks.

Back to Bruckner,

Mario

[Bryn]

I’m sorry but I must jump in here, as I’m getting more and more frustrated by what I read.

So here I am, approaching my 70th year, determined to complete my Music Theory course (currently at Grade 5) and REALLY struggling with cadences, and I read that one of the most erudite, accomplished, knowledgeable contributors with an enviable command of the English language, while another, who just happens to be a professional composer, have either of them not had serious music training? And one didn’t start till he’s 58, and another has not had a single lesson? And she compounds her sins by supporting THAT football club?

Ye Gods!

Seriously guys, I might as well pack it in now!

Mario

I think in Richard's case, it was not a straight forward case of being untutored in music, just that he had not formalised his situation. When I met him more than 36 years ago he was already a very accomplished musician and composer. Like Howard Skempton, he had private lessons with an established composer, though Skempton did have some musical qualifications prior to his prvate tuition in composition.

[Mario]

I think in Richard's case, it was not a straight forward case of being untutored in music, just that he had not formalised his situation. When I met him more than 36 years ago he was already a very accomplished musician and composer. Like Howard Skempton, he had private lessons with an established composer, though Skempton did have some musical qualifications prior to his prvate tuition in composition.

I obviously misunderstood.

Thanks for the correction Bryn,

Mario

[cloughie]

OK, good advice as usual Heldenleben. You continue to motivate me.

By 4-part harmonisation, I assume you mean take a simple theme, and under simple basic SATB rules harmonise for a choir?

Sorry for the deviation off Bruckner.

Mario

Or TTBB!

[Mario]

Or TTBB!

Sorry, doesn't compute.

Tenor, tenor, bass, bass?

Mario

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sorry, doesn't compute.

Tenor, tenor, bass, bass?

Mario

Male voice choir big in Cornwall and Wales
To get things back on topic Bruckner wrote a few pieces for male voice choir . I don’t think I’ve ever heard any performed .
Post wiki correction - he wrote a LOT of pieces for male choir.

[cloughie]

Sorry, doesn't compute.

Tenor, tenor, bass, bass?

Mario

Yes - T1 First tenor (tops), T2 second tenor (seconds), B1 first bass (baritones), B2 second bass (basses)

[Mario]

Yes - T1 First tenor (tops), T2 second tenor (seconds), B1 first bass (baritones), B2 second bass (basses)

Thanks Cloughie.

Strange, have never come across this setup from my studies from this website:

www.mymusictheory.com

A pair of tenors and a pair of basses – sounds interesting! And yes, I do love those Welsh choirs. Thanks to you and Heldenleben.

Best wishes,

Mario

[jayne lee wilson]

You are misunderstanding my post . I didn’t say or imply Bruckner lacks harmonic invention - far from it.I am producing some reasons why some people don’t like Bruckner . By harmonic momentum I mean harmonic change bar on bar - that’s why you get the common criticism that it all sounds the same. The relative lack of memorable tunes compared to say Tschaikovsky is another reason why his symphonies have never been audience grabbers . There’s nothing wrong with either preference one way or another . Some people want a melody , others aren’t so fussed .

But this is not about mere preference, it is about misunderstanding.... you seem to have ignored my #251.....and your categorical statement that Bruckner has a "relative lack of memorable tunes" is in fact mere vague subjectivity, and very inaccurate. I have carried Bruckner's melodies around with me for several decades, as many others have (Karajan, Wand, Andreae, Venzago, Deryck Cooke, Robert Simpson...and Petrushka on this forum...), and all (!) it takes to remember them is to listen to them more often - without prejudice, a very difficult thing for a musiclover to do if her first encounter with Bruckner is belated in life.....

You may not find them memorable subjectively but that doesn't mean they aren't. As for "harmonic change bar-by-bar" I can only say again, see #251.... Bruckner's harmonic progressions (more like conflict and juxtaposition) work on a much longer timescale, and that is what needs to be grasped - by listening.....you have to hear it for what it is, not criticise it, Hanslick-style, for what it is not. Why do you think it took so long for Bruckner's music to be edited accurately? Because his well-meaning friends kept trying to persuade him to cut it down and tidy it up, into supposedly conventional classical structures. It seems many listeners today are still, in effect, trying to do the same.

An exercise I've suggested before: as you listen, note down each idea as it occurs (A,B C etc...); then as each idea recurs, is varied or developed, note that as A2, B2, C2 and so on....if it does nothing else it will keep you focussed. And may give you a new insight into how it all works. Remember what I said: most 1st and last movements of a Bruckner Symphony are based on the background of a sonata form with three subjects, but no repeat....
Then the more you listen, the more those wonderful melodies with take root in your heart, and stay there for ever.

When was a worthwhile thing, artistic pursuits especially, ever easy?

As for the choral works you mentioned, this new release is among the very best and most beautiful....

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/bruckner-latin-motets-sigvards-klava-latvian-radio-choir/losk9u7v9nd3b

[Leinster Lass]

What I'm saying is that "waiting for a proper tune" isn't the only way to listen to music, and it isn't the only way to compose music. Why did Beethoven and Sibelius not introduce their "proper tunes" at the beginning? Do you imagine they thought of what happens before them as "waiting"? And, once more, what's so important about "proper tunes"? As for "musical training", I don't believe Jayne is a trained musician, though she'll correct me if I'm wrong, and in fact I didn't have any formal qualification in music until the age of 58, so that's really a red herring. Bruckner's music isn't there to confirm what you already think you know about music but to challenge and expand it. Maybe you're not interested in that!

'Proper tunes' cheer me up, which is surely a good thing. Jayne writes with such authority that I assumed (wrongly, it would appear) that she is musically trained or professionally involved in some way in the musical world. She's certainly heard a lot more music by many more composers than I even dreamed existed (would that I had that much spare time ) and the profundity of her analyses never fails to amaze me. I don't really see the relevance of the red herring, as I'm not trying to deceive or mislead anybody, and I'm sorry if my problems with Bruckner have led to any such misunderstandings. I'm also sorry that the fact that I find Bruckner difficult and thought I might seek help seems to bother people, and not quite sure how to take your last 2 sentences - but then, what I think I know about music, let alone what I actually know, probably doesn't amount to the famous hill of beans what Humphrey Bogart mentioned at the end of 'Casablanca'. (I wonder if Rick would have liked Bruckner if people listened to him in those days ).

[Leinster Lass]

Thankyou, Richard, for a wonderfully lucid series of posts.....

Absolutely no training here. Not a single lesson.

I'm aghast at the comments that Bruckner lacks "harmonic momentum"..... he uses tonality in a very original way, creating bases and plateaux and conflicts between them, in multi-themed forms of continuous melodic and contrapuntal development. You absolutely don't need to identify a given key to hear all these stages, progressions and conflicts. Follow the sounds and shapes that you hear. Try to relax and open up to the larger scale architecture before you. This is far-flung, fantastical music...Planet Bruckner. Convention or conformity are off the agenda.

Brucknerian thematic "Repetition" is in a constant state of contrapuntal variation, apart from the scherzi (just listen to the evolving dramas of his recapitulations and codas - scarcely any literal repeat of anything, often with glorious conclusions - try the 4th or the overwhelming 6th).
But most classical scherzi repeat, pretty literally, their outer sections anyway. Bruckner wrote some of the most (melodically!) lovable and memorable trios, based on the Austrian landler dance/folk character. Just listen to that of the 8th....arms spread wide on the hilltop!

As for a lack of melody..... da capo again, he is one of the most memorable of all melodists, including his true predecessor Schubert, and Schumann, and Mendelssohn..... it just takes time. I'm very lucky to have started listening to Bruckner in my late teens, courtesy Radio 3, Gramophone, the Master Musicians books and a nearby Record Library.......

Try this as a guide to what is actually happening......

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Essence-Bruckner-Robert-Simpson/dp/057505221X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3704BWCUOWD63&dchild=1&keywords=robert+simpson+bruckner&qid=1608124073&rnid=1642204031&s=books&sprefix=robert+simpson+%2Caps%2C153&sr=1-2

Look around for a better price....!
Quick tip: try hearing the outer movements as "three-subject sonata forms"..... with no repeat....most of them are some highly inventive variant upon this.

Poor Bruckner. It is as if the shade of Eduard Hanslick still stalks Planet Musiclover. But this composer was ahead of his time, and probably still is, and perhaps always will be.

But The Happy Few know something else....

Wow!
Are the Happy Few likely to let on any time soon?

[Ein Heldenleben]

But this is not about mere preference, it is about misunderstanding.... you seem to have ignored my #251.....and your categorical statement that Bruckner has a "relative lack of memorable tunes" is in fact mere vague subjectivity, and very inaccurate. I have carried Bruckner's melodies around with me for several decades, as many others have (Karajan, Wand, Andreae, Venzago, Deryck Cooke, Robert Simpson...and Petrushka on this forum...), and all (!) it takes to remember them is to listen to them more often - without prejudice, a very difficult thing for a musiclover to do if her first encounter with Bruckner is belated in life.....

You may not find them memorable subjectively but that doesn't mean they aren't. As for "harmonic change bar-by-bar" i can only say again, see #251.... Bruckner's harmonic progressions work on a much longer timescale, and that is what needs to be grasped - by listening.....

As for the choral works you mentioned, this new release is among the very best and most beautiful....
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/br.../losk9u7v9nd3b

Thing is just about every assertion about art is “vague subjectivity “ unless it’s just straightforward factual analysis . It would be difficult to prove one way or another just how memorable Bruckner’s tunes are . Maybe through playing a selection of melodies to people who’ve heard little and asking them to hum it back . I suspect the Virgin listener would have no problem with a McCartney tune or Tschaikovsky but might struggle with Bruckner 9 . It’s even quite difficult to define what a ‘tune’ is. I was trying to explain why Bruckner isn’t as popular as perhaps he should be and I think his ‘relative’ lack of memorable tunes may be a reason . I have been listening to Bruckner for decades, I’m also a pretty accomplished pianist , a good sight reader and can pick up quite a few pieces by ear and harmonise them on the fly from having played a lot of jazz but , for some reason , I find Bruckner’s tunes difficult to remember. I have the same problem with Sibelius’s tunes . But that’s as you say is just one subjective experience . I think part of the problem is that a lot of his “tunes” are melodic fragments or motifs rather than the standard 16 bar song - for some reason I find those easier to remember.
On the harmonic progression as I say I think some listeners (not me) find the loud repetitive brass blaze ups for example a bit boring . I’ve sat through some excellent Bruckner concerts over the years and often wondered why it’s not a sellout. Another problem is the length but then I spent years trying to persuade people to like Wagner...

[jayne lee wilson]

Wow!
Are the Happy Few likely to let on any time soon?

The band of the Happy Few are open to any new members: only qualification..... listening to Bruckner until....see my comments above. The love will follow the understanding, and it is always a lifelong ever-changing process, like any relationship with animals, humans or Works of Art....

As for Bruckner's tunes being predominantly "fragments or motifs"..... one can only gasp.
Have you never heard the endless melodies which open No.2, No.3 (original version please!) or No.7, (then the extension of those wonderful tunes into a whole family of developmental motifs)? Or the "gesangsperioden"? Those Brucknerian very relaxed 2nd subject groups often in the form of catchy Austrian songs or dances, some slow some fast, in just about every symphony? Go listen to the trios at the heart of each scherzo: motifs and fragments..?.. No, just more lovely songs and dances........

Hardly fragments or motifs, just beautifully extended melody. But the developmental motifs are all drawn from the first few ideas, and the whole symphony usually derives from those...

How long does the 4th take to state its "first subject"? Several minutes, across the horn call motto of the intro and the grand sweeping descent of the main theme, which starts developing the moment it appears....then we relax into the lovely chirping lilt of the gesang....this song then begins to tense and ascend dramatically, combining with the first group, then driving on until - the third idea: a stentorian, terse, rhythmic figure...

Which idea dominates the climactic chorale of the development, or that triumphant blazing coda? Listen and observe......

It takes time, and patience. Love and devotion. The submission of the self to an alien beauty.