Bruckner

[P. G. Tipps]

... there is the point that the very different Musics of Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms were equally manipulated by Nazi propagandists (and a simple substitution of "Beethoven" for "Bruckner" in the quotations in bsp's post demonstrates exactly how empty the comments are -

Well, of course ... which is precisely the very same point I made earlier!

That, quite naturally, will raise the question (at least to the open-minded and more perceptive observer), 'WHY' ?.

Draw your own conclusions ... I drew my own quite some time ago!

[bluestateprommer]

From this side of the pond, c/o Anthony Tommasini of the NYT, for the Bruckner-philes there:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/arts/music/bruckner-symphonies.html

[jayne lee wilson]

From this side of the pond, c/o Anthony Tommasini of the NYT, for the Bruckner-philes there:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/a...ymphonies.html

Shame about the (very dated) comment:
"Still, these symphonies are sprawling; it’s difficult to make them not seem long-winded, aimless and even, as some feel, aloof."

Bruckner's symphonies only seem "sprawling" or "longwinded" if you don't understand them....which requires a certain effort to follow the music as you hear it...

Still too much to ask, for some, it seems....

[LMcD]

Shame about the (very dated) comment:
"Still, these symphonies are sprawling; it’s difficult to make them not seem long-winded, aimless and even, as some feel, aloof."

Bruckner's symphonies only seem "sprawling" or "longwinded" if you don't understand them....which requires a certain effort to follow the music as you hear it...

Still too much to ask, for some, it seems....

For me, Mahler's symphonies, most of which are even longer than Bruckner's, seem shorter and are certainly much more enjoyable because they're SO much more going on! The only Bruckner symphony that holds my attention for any length of time is the '0'.

[antongould]

For me, Mahler's symphonies, most of which are even longer than Bruckner's, seem shorter and are certainly much more enjoyable because they're SO much more going on! The only Bruckner symphony that holds my attention for any length of time is the '0'.

I view that has been voiced before by a Forum legend ......

[cloughie]

I view that has been voiced before by a Forum legend ......

It is probably a gauged reaction - there’s the ‘00’ to get the measure of his writing!

I like Bruckner, rambling or not, but with what is left of my lifespan I could not prioritise analysing all the versions - if he was that good why so many? - above all the other music that charms me!

[Petrushka]

One wouldn't have expected to have to make the case for Bruckner to members of a Forum such as this and, in all honesty, one despairs of the level of incomprehension on display in the last few posts, an attitude one might have encountered 40 or 50 years ago.

When it comes to Bruckner, time is meaningless, and above all he does not ramble! By contrast, his symphonies are models of concision, with not a single note out of place. Start from that, forget 'version city' and enjoy!

[cloughie]

One wouldn't have expected to have to make the case for Bruckner to members of a Forum such as this and, in all honesty, one despairs of the level of incomprehension on display in the last few posts, an attitude one might have encountered 40 or 50 years ago.

When it comes to Bruckner, time is meaningless, and above all he does not ramble! By contrast, his symphonies are models of concision, with not a single note out of place. Start from that, forget 'version city' and enjoy!

I do enjoy, but in my very obviously humble he does ramble, particularly in finales, an no amount of explanation will change my view on that, and maybe rambling is not necessarily a bad thing if that’s what he intended to do.

[jayne lee wilson]

One wouldn't have expected to have to make the case for Bruckner to members of a Forum such as this and, in all honesty, one despairs of the level of incomprehension on display in the last few posts, an attitude one might have encountered 40 or 50 years ago.

When it comes to Bruckner, time is meaningless, and above all he does not ramble! By contrast, his symphonies are models of concision, with not a single note out of place. Start from that, forget 'version city' and enjoy!

Thankyou so much for that Pet.....

I would just add though that the versions are now wonderfully well-edited, there are many recordings, and the reasons for the various revisions are far better understood. Getting to know them can be marvellously rewarding, if only because (at least, but not only for, a lifelong Bruckner devotee) its wonderful to have at least 15 Symphonies to enjoy rather than the supposed 9 or 10....

So have a look at what is actually the case.....I've linked to these sites often but oddly enough feel the need to do so again...

https://www.unicamp.br/~jmarques/mus/bruckner-e.htm#2

https://bruckner.webs.com/versions.html

Everyone here loves music, and you can never know too much about one of the greatest composers....

[Bryn]

Thankyou so much for that Pet.....

I would just add though that the versions are now wonderfully well-edited, there are many recordings, and the reasons for the various revisions are far better understood. Getting to know them can be marvellously rewarding, if only because (at least, but not only for, a lifelong Bruckner devotee) its wonderful to have at least 15 Symphonies to enjoy rather than the supposed 9 or 10....

So have a look at what is actually the case.....I've linked to these sites often but oddly enough feel the need to do so again...

https://www.unicamp.br/~jmarques/mus/bruckner-e.htm#2

https://bruckner.webs.com/versions.html

Everyone here loves music, and you can never know too much about one of the greatest composers....

Well said, as was Petrushka's. Anyway, there are far fewer genuine Bruckner Symphony versions than might at first appear to be the case. So many were constructed by others than AB.

(I will be making a further reference to Bruckner in a shortly forthcoming correction to an earlier post re. Feldman's "For John Cage".)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I do enjoy, but in my very obviously humble he does ramble, particularly in finales, an no amount of explanation will change my view on that, and maybe rambling is not necessarily a bad thing if that’s what he intended to do.

Well - it strikes you as "rambling", clearly, cloughie; but the hundreds of thousands of people who adore his work are clearly not motivated by an admiration for rambling, intentional or otherwise. Bruckner knew what he was doing - his mastery of Tonality, structure, and thematic development is revealed in the course of the Music. Plenty of people don't like this, of course - not a lot that can be said about that: everyone has their "deaf spots" and nobody has to "like" this (or any) Music, but there's no more blame to be attached to Bruckner for any listener's boredom than there is to those who get bored.

But the "rightness" of Bruckner's structures is why his work seems "longer" when it is cut - important material, necessary for the following of the logic of the Music, is cut out making the train of thought impossible to follow.

[LMcD]

It is probably a gauged reaction - there’s the ‘00’ to get the measure of his writing!

I like Bruckner, rambling or not, but with what is left of my lifespan I could not prioritise analysing all the versions - if he was that good why so many? - above all the other music that charms me!

I've heard of Novak and Haas, but I didn't know Nick Hornby had also edited any of Bruckner's symphonies - or did he confine himself to certain tracks? Having just started on my 4th quarter century, I fear I shall have to forgo the undoubted delights of Anton and concentrate on Gustav - luckily there don't seem to be many competing versions of his works. I picked up Karajan's 5th for 33.33p this morning.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I shall have to forgo the undoubted delights of Anton and concentrate on Gustav - luckily there don't seem to be many competing versions of his works.

They ain't "competing" - they're "complementing".

I picked up Karajan's 5th for 33.33p this morning.

A bargain! One of my favourite recordings of the work - plenty of joy there for your next quarter century ... and, I hope, beyond.

[cloughie]

Well - it strikes you as "rambling", clearly, cloughie; but the hundreds of thousands of people who adore his work are clearly not motivated by an admiration for rambling, intentional or otherwise. Bruckner knew what he was doing - his mastery of Tonality, structure, and thematic development is revealed in the course of the Music. Plenty of people don't like this, of course - not a lot that can be said about that: everyone has their "deaf spots" and nobody has to "like" this (or any) Music, but there's no more blame to be attached to Bruckner for any listener's boredom than there is to those who get bored.

But the "rightness" of Bruckner's structures is why his work seems "longer" when it is cut - important material, necessary for the following of the logic of the Music, is cut out making the train of thought impossible to follow.

I would think that many of the 'hundreds of thousands of people who adore his work' probably don't analyse it but, like me, enjoy the listen. I doubt I'll change that after 55+ years of listening to him I am still AB positive! I also retain the right to my opinion that attimes he sounds rambling! I think my first Bruckner was Rosbaud's 7th on Turnabout.

[Richard Tarleton]

One wouldn't have expected to have to make the case for Bruckner to members of a Forum such as this and, in all honesty, one despairs of the level of incomprehension on display in the last few posts, an attitude one might have encountered 40 or 50 years ago.

When it comes to Bruckner, time is meaningless, and above all he does not ramble! By contrast, his symphonies are models of concision, with not a single note out of place. Start from that, forget 'version city' and enjoy!

Thankyou so much for that Pet.....

I would just add though that the versions are now wonderfully well-edited, there are many recordings, and the reasons for the various revisions are far better understood. Getting to know them can be marvellously rewarding, if only because (at least, but not only for, a lifelong Bruckner devotee) its wonderful to have at least 15 Symphonies to enjoy rather than the supposed 9 or 10....

So have a look at what is actually the case.....I've linked to these sites often but oddly enough feel the need to do so again...

https://www.unicamp.br/~jmarques/mus/bruckner-e.htm#2

https://bruckner.webs.com/versions.html

Everyone here loves music, and you can never know too much about one of the greatest composers....

Well said, as was Petrushka's. Anyway, there are far fewer genuine Bruckner Symphony versions than might at first appear to be the case. So many were constructed by others than AB.

Thanks to all the above. I can remember falling instantly, and deeply, in love with Bruckner, exactly 50 years ago (I can remember the circumstances, time of day, room, recording (Klemperer/7 - I was to be robbed of seeing Klemperer conduct it 2 years later) - and that's before we get to my first live Bruckner (Bernard H, who else, 3, LPO).... and thank you Jayne for that link, which I'd lost. As to "versions", my most revelatory discoveries, at my own very basic level, have been 1/Carragan/Tintner, 2/Carragan/Tintner (and Blomstedt), and 3/1873/Nowak/Tintner and 1877/Nowak/Blomstedt.......My 1878 version on LP (Haitink/RCO) was my first version (presumably the one he was playing back in 1972) but that, like my Giulini 2, I don't listen to these days.