Bruckner

[teamsaint]

Just listening to an off air recording of Bruckner 8 with Thielemann and the Berlin Philharmonic, not one of the nimblest, the weighty building bricks come clad in BPO velvet and there's sth of the behemoth about it, but it's very involving indeed.

For all its stark changes and dark moments, Bruckner's music always strikes me as emotionally pretty secure. It never feels as if it might completely go off the rails, in the way Mahler, Sibelius, Beethoven* can threaten to do.
I always wondered why Sibelius music seemed less conservative to me than say that of Nielsen, whose harmonic language could be said to be more 'modern'. I think part of the answer is in the manifestation of emotion in Sibelius, at times it borders on extremities of disorientation and detachment from a secure centre, its only purpose at times seems to be to wtiness its own hopelessness. Mahler too seems ready at many moments to combust in irreconcilability, and there's a dangerous energy in Beethoven that sails in perilous waters, or exists in a cloud that threatens to drift away entirely in the later works.

Underlying Bruckner (in my head) is this kind of emotional four part chorale keeping it centred wherever its harmonic and structural oddities stray. A kind of potent combination of belief and uncertainty producing miraculous musical results.

Anyway just some personal and and entirely unscientific impressions.

*To name only them, Shostakovich, Vivaldi and plenty of others waiting on the subs bench.

......which makes me think the new composers sub forum really needs a Schnittke thread......

[richardfinegold]

Daniel, you're on excellent form today. I would extend your Bruckner comments by saying that even his "emotional four-part chorale" begins to break down in his 9th symphony, at least in the three completed movements, and that this is maybe one way to characterise the "unfinishability" of the work - it's assumed that the final movement would find its way back to the kind of affirmation you're talking about, and this seems to be the case in the extant parts of it, but this would somehow involve a pulling back from the brink which would make what is a quite visionary work look a lot more conservative. What you say about Sibelius interests me too, I must try to hear for myself what you're talking about, because (in my relative ignorance it must be said) I think of his music as very "grounded" indeed.

I was about to say the same thing about Bruckner 9 but RB beat me to it and was undoubtedly more eloquent thatn I would have been. In the 9th Bruckner really does seem to be peering over an abyss and being pretty damn frightened by what he sees, but then somehow accepting it.
I'm not sure that Sibelius can be 'pigeon-holed' as either grounded or 'on the edge'. There are moments of both. Certainly the 4th Symphony reflects terror orf the unknown, no doubt influenced by his contemporaneous encounter with throat cancer.
Tapiola and the Seventh Symphonies also seem to acknowledge that there is much in life to fear without successfully resolving those emotions as he does in other works, such as Symphonies 1,2 and 5 and the VC.
Nielsen was clearly shaken by WW1 and Symphonies 4 and 5 certainly reflect this. 6 seems to be a comment on the direction of Music at the time but perhaps is amore Universal Statement? All of these last 3 Symphonies are 'unsettling' both harmonically and emotionally.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, the 9th is very different isn't it? Those visitations of doubt, fear and death that rear up in the second half of the 8th's 1st movement become explicit, threatening and very intense.
Some earlier finales get pretty wild though: the 1st, with its eerily apprehensive violin figurations, conjures up a dizzying whirlwind of fierce rhythmical energy that is only just contained, steam-hammered into the final cadences. The 6th's finale has an uneasy, jump-cutting structural instability about it, as if always changing the point of view of the same fantastical landscape. And think of the pent-up anger in the rhythmic figure that dominates the finale of the 2nd, a largely pastoral, peaceful work until then; and the desperate efforts through its development to transform it into positive energy.
These all seem to me to be musically and emotionally very "de-stabilising" influences. So I think those darker demonic forces were always somewhere there, before their more overt expressions in the 8th and 9th Symphonies.
(And it does set the 5th apart even more clearly, as the truest, grandest statement of an Apollonian confidence.)

***

About the 9th's finale, I had this to say in an earlier discussion:

I couldn't help thinking, after hearing the Rattle performance again, that a finale couldn't possibly continue in the same vein as i-iii; so much conflict is worked through and out in those movements; what could possibly follow? This may be why it has been found satisfying to so many listeners without a finale, especially if the Adagio's end is performed as, and known to be, the conclusion.
For me, the finale HAS to set off in a new direction. Did Bruckner see Death as indeed a release, the ascent to heaven and to God as - not just a profound fulfilment, but a great adventure? Or Death as the start of another more mysterious adventure? "Peace on Earth" at the end of the Adagio, and then...?

Those remarkable grinding harmonies in the finale (after 12'30 Rattle) sound like an intense struggle to get away, to move on - and the return of the 1st-movement-1st-climax theme near the end is anything but reassuring - the flow of the music stops dead.. This is NOT the way forward! Then the coda, especially in the latest SPMC text, really does achieve lift-off. This isn't a grandly synthesising finale, or a clearing of any conflicts left from i - iii. It sounds remarkably fresh, with a new rhythmical freedom and simplicity of ideas. Vitally contrasting with the structural complexities, and the intense emotional workings-out of i and iii or the devils-and-angels visions of the scherzo.

After all, Bruckner's finales are very distinct from one another; sometimes quite brusquely terminated as in 2 and 6, or grandly cyclical perorations in 4 and 5, 7 and 8. At this end-stage of his life, facing death, after a great battle with Faith, Doubt, and other ghostlier, nameless demons, you wouldn't really have expected anything familiar - would you?

[Bryn]

Yes, the 9th is very different isn't it? Those visitations of doubt, fear and death that rear up in the second half of the 8th's 1st movement become explicit, threatening and very intense.
Some earlier finales get pretty wild though: the 1st, with its eerily apprehensive violin figurations, conjures up a dizzying whirlwind of fierce rhythmical energy that is only just contained, steam-hammered into the final cadences. The 6th's finale has an uneasy, jump-cutting structural instability about it, as if always changing the point of view of the same fantastical landscape. And think of the pent-up anger in the rhythmic figure that dominates the finale of the 2nd, a largely pastoral, peaceful work until then; and the desperate efforts through its development to transform it into positive energy.
These all seem to me to be musically and emotionally very "de-stabilising" influences. So I think those darker demonic forces were always somewhere there, before their more overt expressions in the 8th and 9th Symphonies.
(And it does set the 5th apart even more clearly, as the truest, grandest statement of an Apollonian confidence.)

***

About the 9th's finale, I had this to say in an earlier discussion:

I couldn't help thinking, after hearing the Rattle performance again, that a finale couldn't possibly continue in the same vein as i-iii; so much conflict is worked through and out in those movements; what could possibly follow? This may be why it has been found satisfying to so many listeners without a finale, especially if the Adagio's end is performed as, and known to be, the conclusion.
For me, the finale HAS to set off in a new direction. Did Bruckner see Death as indeed a release, the ascent to heaven and to God as - not just a profound fulfilment, but a great adventure? Or Death as the start of another more mysterious adventure? "Peace on Earth" at the end of the Adagio, and then...?

Those remarkable grinding harmonies in the finale (after 12'30 Rattle) sound like an intense struggle to get away, to move on - and the return of the 1st-movement-1st-climax theme near the end is anything but reassuring - the flow of the music stops dead.. This is NOT the way forward! Then the coda, especially in the latest SPMC text, really does achieve lift-off. This isn't a grandly synthesising finale, or a clearing of any conflicts left from i - iii. It sounds remarkably fresh, with a new rhythmical freedom and simplicity of ideas. Vitally contrasting with the structural complexities, and the intense emotional workings-out of i and iii or the devils-and-angels visions of the scherzo.

After all, Bruckner's finales are very distinct from one another; sometimes quite brusquely terminated as in 2 and 6, or grandly cyclical perorations in 4 and 5, 7 and 8. At this end-stage of his life, facing death, after a great battle with Faith, Doubt, and other ghostlier, nameless demons, you wouldn't really have expected anything familiar - would you?

Did you catch the two BBCSSO/Dausgaard performance of the SPMC completed version of the 9th on Ao3 (those from Glasgow and Edinburgh)? I have just this evening rediscovered the aac file of the Glasgow one (I had previously mislaid it). Both performances are worth hearing, and each I prefer to the Rattles (both the edited compilation on CD and the straight concert performance (the precise provenance of which broadcast recording escapes me at the moment).

[Daniel]

I would extend your Bruckner comments by saying that even his "emotional four-part chorale" begins to break down in his 9th symphony, at least in the three completed movements, and that this is maybe one way to characterise the "unfinishability" of the work - it's assumed that the final movement would find its way back to the kind of affirmation you're talking about, and this seems to be the case in the extant parts of it, but this would somehow involve a pulling back from the brink which would make what is a quite visionary work look a lot more conservative.

To be honest I know Bruckner 9 far better in its three movement incarnation, but those are very interesting thoughts indeed about its completion 'pulling back from the brink', I have a sudden urge to listen to the completed work with your and Jayne's comments in mind (though that won't realistically happen for a couple of days). Anyway yes I agree Bruckner 9 is different, buffeted by very dark intimations with suggestions of a deeper instability, and with pre echoes of Mahler 10 in the Adagio - a work whose foundations are shaken very violently.

I'm not sure that Sibelius can be 'pigeon-holed' as either grounded or 'on the edge'. There are moments of both.

Indeed, I did say, "at times it borders on extremities of disorientation and detachment" (italics added), I certainly wouldn't suggest that all Sibelius is like that. You mention pretty much the examples I would have, though I might add that Segerstam and the Helsinki PO in Tapiola illustrate the point particularly well.
I just had in mind that when things do get bad in Sibelius I feel he gets close to the point where the fabric of everything could just come apart. That's not sth I've felt in Nielsen, not a criticism btw, just a difference of feeling I get between them.

[richardfinegold]

To be honest I know Bruckner 9 far better in its three movement incarnation, but those are very interesting thoughts indeed about its completion 'pulling back from the brink', I have a sudden urge to listen to the completed work with your and Jayne's comments in mind (though that won't realistically happen for a couple of days). Anyway yes I agree Bruckner 9 is different, buffeted by very dark intimations with suggestions of a deeper instability, and with pre echoes of Mahler 10 in the Adagio - a work whose foundations are shaken very violently.



Indeed, I did say, "at times it borders on extremities of disorientation and detachment" (italics added), I certainly wouldn't suggest that all Sibelius is like that. You mention pretty much the examples I would have, though I might add that Segerstam and the Helsinki PO in Tapiola illustrate the point particularly well.
I just had in mind that when things do get bad in Sibelius I feel he gets close to the point where the fabric of everything could just come apart. That's not sth I've felt in Nielsen, not a criticism btw, just a difference of feeling I get between them.

I didn't interpret your comments as criticism of Nielsen. However, don't you think there is some wildness in the dueling timps of the 4th? Or the first movement of 5, where the menacing March appears out of the mists, and then the anarchic snare drummer?

[Richard Barrett]

I agree Bruckner 9 is different, buffeted by very dark intimations with suggestions of a deeper instability, and with pre echoes of Mahler 10

For what it's worth, I'm always interested in hearing completions of Mahler 10, although there still isn't one that does what I would
really want it to do (and I don't expect I'll ever get around to making my own, even though I've been thinking about it for thirty years or so!), whereas the SPMC completion of Bruckner 9 is supposedly on much firmer ground than any complete versions of Mahler 10 and after an initial flurry of interest I can't really raise the enthusiasm to listen to more than the first three movements. (But then I feel the same about Beethoven 9...)

[ahinton]

For what it's worth, I'm always interested in hearing completions of Mahler 10, although there still isn't one that does what I would really want it to do (and I don't expect I'll ever get around to making my own, even though I've been thinking about it for thirty years or so!)

I had no idea! - and I daresay few if any forumites would have either. Thinking about it is perhaps the problem; why not just go for it? (well, when sufficient time permits, anyway)...

Which of the existing ones are you most satisfied with and what do you feel are its shortcomings in general terms?

[jayne lee wilson]

Did you catch the two BBCSSO/Dausgaard performance of the SPMC completed version of the 9th on Ao3 (those from Glasgow and Edinburgh)? I have just this evening rediscovered the aac file of the Glasgow one (I had previously mislaid it). Both performances are worth hearing, and each I prefer to the Rattles (both the edited compilation on CD and the straight concert performance (the precise provenance of which broadcast recording escapes me at the moment).

Sadly I never caught up with it - I've always wanted to give prolonged attention to the 9th's completions, but I may have to wait till the next life to find the time! Very Brucknerian. Perhaps he'll have handed down his own completion by then.

RE. my earlier comments I do think the 1st has suffered a bit from Bruckner's "kecke besserl" nickname, saucy little thing, so easily moved on from to the more usual Brucknerian stereotype of grandiloquent choralian grandeur etc. Those finales I mentioned above haven't often been recognised for the strange, unstable mood-swinging creations they really are. Listening to Venzago's 1st last night I was stunned again at just what a fierily energised, fantastical creation it is - very much after Schubert in Death and The Maiden scurrying-to-despair mode. The work hardly settles for a second. Too many commentaries pick out that Tännhauserisch 3rd theme in the 1st movement and seem to lose sight of its more enlivening influences.

Anyone listening to Bruckner's first three or four symphonies could do worse than take a crashcourse through Schubert's later quartets beforehand.

[Richard Barrett]

Anyone listening to Bruckner's first three or four symphonies could do worse than take a crashcourse through Schubert's later quartets beforehand.

The 3rd also has strong links to Schubert's "Unfinished" - in fact the influence of Schubert on Bruckner affects almost every level of Bruckner's music, notably in terms of form. (And they both studied counterpoint with Simon Sechter of course, Schubert near the end of his life and Bruckner when young, I wonder if that gave rise to any similarities.)

[robk]

Have any of you Brucknerites heard the new Nézet-Séguin’s Third yet. Stephen Johnson was impressed in BBC Music. I am wondering whether to purchase.

[Beef Oven!]

Have any of you Brucknerites heard the new Nézet-Séguin’s Third yet. Stephen Johnson was impressed in BBC Music. I am wondering whether to purchase.

There are two recordings. Which one is SJ referring to?

Have a look on the Bruckner 3 BaL thread, there’s some discussion on there about it.

Jayne’s post is the one to particularly look out for - she gives a very interesting and comprehensive overview, IIRC.

For what it’s worth, I have the later release with Orchestre Métropolitain on Atma Classique as a CD, which presumably represent YNS’s most up to date view of the work. I rate it very highly indeed

The profil release is the older one.

(ferney, could the Bruckner BaL’s be added to the Bruckner sub-category? We could achieve a sort of electronic Bruckner vade mecum)

Ignore that which what is in parentheses-thingies, I see that it has been done. I blame robk - why didn’t he go straight to the B3 threads?

[cloughie]

The 3rd also has strong links to Schubert's "Unfinished" - in fact the influence of Schubert on Bruckner affects almost every level of Bruckner's music, notably in terms of form. (And they both studied counterpoint with Simon Sechter of course, Schubert near the end of his life and Bruckner when young, I wonder if that gave rise to any similarities.)

Even following Schubert's example with an unfinished (9th) Symphony!

[robk]

It was the Staatskapelle Dresden Third (1873) with Nézet-Séguin I was referring to. I have only just worked out that it was recorded live in 2008 but released at the end of last year. Jayne promised a review but I can't find one. Not sure now which thread I should be on!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LB5B0K6/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_img?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2PNUY4WQO0O0M&coliid=I3UMHEAXHG0IU2

[Beef Oven!]

It was the Staatskapelle Dresden Third (1873) with Nézet-Séguin I was referring to. I have only just worked out that it was recorded live in 2008 but released at the end of last year. Jayne promised a review but I can't find one. Not sure now which thread I should be on!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LB5B0...I3UMHEAXHG0IU2

You want post #309 in the BaL Bruckner 3 thread.

Here’s a link to the page, scroll down for Jayne’s post #309

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?16645-Bruckner-Symphony-no-3-in-D-minor-BaL-31-12-16/page9