Bruckner

[RichardB]

Thanks for your replies. I'm sure he had reasons for such a contrast between the main theme and the trio beside a summation and exploration of his previous works.

Of course. He may not even have done it consciously. The musical evolution will have taken on a life and momentum of its own, and we can see throughout the cycle of the symphonies a sense of each continuing from the previous one. In general there's a movement towards a greater complexity of form, greater contrast between materials, and distillation of materials, as previously mentioned. Personally I don't hear this music in terms of concrete images and specific emotions that can be described in words. Maybe it's me that's missing something, but I have a lot of time for Susan Sontag's essay "Against Interpretation" from 1964 in which she says:

Interpretation takes the sensory experience of the work of art for granted, and proceeds from there. This cannot be taken for granted, now. Think of the sheer multiplication of works of art available to every one of us, superadded to the conflicting tastes and odors and sights of the urban environment that bombard our senses. Ours is a culture based on excess, on overproduction; the result is a steady loss of sharpness in our sensory experience. All the conditions of modern life—its material plenitude, its sheer crowdedness—conjoin to dull our sensory faculties.

What is important now is to recover our senses. We must learn to see more, to hear more, to feel more. Our task is not to find the maximum amount of content in a work of art, much less to squeeze more content out of the work than is already there. Our task is to cut back content so that we can see the thing at all. The aim of all commentary on art now should be to make works of art—and, by analogy, our own experience—more, rather than less, real to us. The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.

I would say these points have only gained relevance in the half century since they were made!

[Joseph K]

Thanks for the Susan Sonntag quote. It's a bit of a head-scratcher for me trying to figure out how one can squeeze content out of a work! This:

The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.

... translated into musical terms seems to me to circumscribe criticism to the role of technical description or analysis.

[RichardB]

... translated into musical terms seems to me to circumscribe criticism to the role of technical description or analysis.

I don't think that's what she was getting at, I think she was heading more in a phenomenological direction.

[silvestrione]

'The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.'

Love it. Close to Matthew Arnold, 'to see the object as in itself it really is'...

[Joseph K]

I don't think that's what she was getting at, I think she was heading more in a phenomenological direction.

Well, it's possible she didn't have music in mind, where 'what it means' might possibly be very abstract rather than the generally more concrete realms of visual art or literature.

Phenomenology is of interest to me, or at least it is in theory, I haven't read much or at all about it - I have read about Consciousness though, which is related. I wonder how one might go about applying phenomenology to the study of music.

[smittims]

Have you read Anthony Storr's 'Music and the Mind' JosephK? YOu might find something there.

[Joseph K]

Have you read Anthony Storr's 'Music and the Mind' JosephK? YOu might find something there.

I have that book. To my chagrin, I haven't yet read it.

[RichardB]

I wonder how one might go about applying phenomenology to the study of music.

There's a (depressingly) large literature on that issue. Actually my previous post was I think the first time I've ever used the word "phenomenology" in a musical context without criticising it as pretentious...

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's a (depressingly) large literature on that issue. Actually my previous post was I think the first time I've ever used the word "phenomenology" in a musical context without criticising it as pretentious...

It’s a good word that. Every time someone uses it I have to look it up along with heuristic , hermetic and hermeneutical though I think I’ve now nailed the first.

[Ein Heldenleben]

'The function of criticism should be to show how it is what it is, even that it is what it is, rather than to show what it means.'

Love it. Close to Matthew Arnold, 'to see the object as in itself it really is'...

Arnold also believed that some artistic works were better than others and it was the job of the critic to sort the wheat from the chaff. That type of criticism is now sadly out of favour though the majority of posters on these threads more or less tread in his footsteps. In fact the Building a Library thread might be the last hurrah of the Arnoldian/ Leavisite / Bloomian approach…

[smittims]

Ah yes, see Richard Hoggart and 'cultural relativism'.

[RichardB]

It’s a good word that. Every time someone uses it I have to look it up along with heuristic , hermetic and hermeneutical though I think I’ve now nailed the first.

I know exactly what you mean - and then you look it up and think, is that really all there is to it? - and then soon afterwards forget it once again.

[silvestrione]

Arnold also believed that some artistic works were better than others and it was the job of the critic to sort the wheat from the chaff. That type of criticism is now sadly out of favour though the majority of posters on these threads more or less tread in his footsteps. In fact the Building a Library thread might be the last hurrah of the Arnoldian/ Leavisite / Bloomian approach…

Really off-thread now, but Terry Eagleton's new book, Critical Revolutionaries, has a pretty good go at restating the rationale for it....

[ahinton]

I know exactly what you mean - and then you look it up and think, is that really all there is to it? - and then soon afterwards forget it once again.

I'm relieved that it's not just me!...

[Joseph K]

Really off-thread now, but Terry Eagleton's new book, Critical Revolutionaries, has a pretty good go at restating the rationale for it....

I like what I've read of him, might have to add that book to the list...