Originally posted by jayne lee wilson
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Bruckner
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Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostBruckner's harmonic progressions (more like conflict and juxtaposition) work on a much longer timescale
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Originally posted by Heldenleben View PostI think you need to read my post more carefully Jayne : I said “a lot of” not “predominantly” . Thing is I don’t find the second subject groups very easy to recall ( that’s what I mean by memorable ) either but that is not the same as good or bad. I’ve listened to 2 and 3 quite recently and can’t recall a note ! I can remember 7 principally because it’s essentially an E major arpeggio with a chromatic end tag ( I’ve heard also it quite a lot more ) and as you say the motif keeps cropping up . There’s a lovely C major melody in Bruckner 9 1st movt which I wish he’d made a bit more of to be honest...
What I'm on about, what Bruckner is about......
But mostly I think: what remarkably original structures these two movements are, confounding any neat models or conventional descriptions....
As Richard said: far more to this than melody, among the most beautiful in creation as they are........
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Originally posted by rathfarnhamgirl View Post'Proper tunes' cheer me up, which is surely a good thing.
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Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostBut this is not about mere preference, it is about misunderstanding.... you seem to have ignored my #251.....and your categorical statement that Bruckner has a "relative lack of memorable tunes" is in fact mere vague subjectivity, and very inaccurate. I have carried Bruckner's melodies around with me for several decades, as many others have (Karajan, Wand, Andreae, Venzago, Deryck Cooke, Robert Simpson...and Petrushka on this forum...), and all (!) it takes to remember them is to listen to them more often - without prejudice, a very difficult thing for a musiclover to do if her first encounter with Bruckner is belated in life.....
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Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostHardly fragments or motifs, just beautifully extended melody. But the developmental motifs are all drawn from the first few ideas, and the whole symphony usually derives from those...
Having never really considered this matter before, I searched around a bit out of curiosity for Bruckner and melody (also in German sources) and came across a relevant quote from Herbert Blomstedt:
"Bei Blomstedt wird Bruckner nie als Mystiker zelebriert […], alles ist große Melodie, fließend, Konzentration, bis sich alle Themen türmen: bei Herbert Blomstedt kein Rausch à la Wagner, sondern liedhafte Struktur."
My translation: "Blomstedt never celebrates Bruckner as a mystic. All is grand melody, flowing, concentration ... not intoxication à la Wagner but songlike structure."
Source: https://www.tageszeitung.it/2015/08/...und-melodiker/
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Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostI could ask which motif, out of so many, "keeps cropping up" in No.7(i).... or how a movement of nearly 30 minutes, 9(i), fails to make enough of..... which melody exactly? The lyrical 2nd group is a vastly extended series of them....nearly all of them play a part in the huge and wonderful coda, among the most awe-inspiring of all Bruckner's creations. But you have to follow them through to understand. To just.....get it.
What I'm on about, what Bruckner is about......
But mostly I think: what remarkably original structures these two movements are, confounding any neat models or conventional descriptions....
As Richard said: far more to this than melody, among the most beautiful in creation as they are........
I mean the opening emaj motif in 7 movt one and as I far as I can tell there’s only one C maj theme in 9 movt 1
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Originally posted by Auferstehen View PostI read that one of the most erudite, accomplished, knowledgeable contributors with an enviable command of the English language, while another, who just happens to be a professional composer, have either of them not had serious music training? And one didn’t start till he’s 58, and another has not had a single lesson?
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Originally posted by rathfarnhamgirl View PostWow!
Are the Happy Few likely to let on any time soon?
I know that I went down in the estimation of the other rfg, in Chicago, when I said that Bruckner did nothing for me, but I stand by that statement: I don't feel that my life would be diminished in any way if I never heard another note of Bruckner.
Those repeats: YES, I got the message first time, thank you.
Cue opprobrium.
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Originally posted by Pulcinella View PostCue opprobrium.
In the end either you get it or you don't, and if you aren't going to, no amount of enthusiasm is going to change that. On the other hand, some of the reasons given for objecting to Bruckner - no melodies, too much repetition etc. - seem not to get to the heart of the issue.
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Originally posted by Pulcinella View PostDon't worry, rathamfarnhamgirl.
I know that I went down in the estimation of the other rfg, in Chicago, when I said that Bruckner did nothing for me, but I stand by that statement: I don't feel that my life would be diminished in any way if I never heard another note of Bruckner.
Those repeats: YES, I got the message first time, thank you.
Cue opprobrium.
I hope nobody's going to get the wrong impression about Bruckner when they read about a series of climaxes...
I guess even his shorter movements are too long to get an airing on 'Breakfast' - not that it's for me to say whether or not that's a good thing.
I'm going to spend the next 60+ minutes trying my darndest to finally get to grips with the one symphony out of nine
by one of my favourite composers that I haven't yet cracked...
'Behold, the sea itself,'
I shall then probably treat myself to an hour or so of Billy Joel.
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Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostI don't see any opprobrium, only efforts to share an enthusiasm!
In the end either you get it or you don't, and if you aren't going to, no amount of enthusiasm is going to change that. On the other hand, some of the reasons given for objecting to Bruckner - no melodies, too much repetition etc. - seem not to get to the heart of the issue.
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Originally posted by Pulcinella View PostDon't worry, rathamfarnhamgirl.
I know that I went down in the estimation of the other rfg, in Chicago, when I said that Bruckner did nothing for me, but I stand by that statement: I don't feel that my life would be diminished in any way if I never heard another note of Bruckner.
Those repeats: YES, I got the message first time, thank you.
Cue opprobrium.
ps thanks also for endorsing my repetition point I’ve heard that from so many Brucknerphobes - though I don’t necessarily agree.
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Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostI don't see any opprobrium, only efforts to share an enthusiasm!
In the end either you get it or you don't, and if you aren't going to, no amount of enthusiasm is going to change that. On the other hand, some of the reasons given for objecting to Bruckner - no melodies, too much repetition etc. - seem not to get to the heart of the issue.
(I’m not that bad a singer honest );
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Originally posted by Heldenleben View PostSomeone once said to me after a performance that they didn’t think Die Meistersinger had any tunes in it .I then sang about half a dozen to them .their witty response -“yes that’s what I mean“
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