Bruckner

[jayne lee wilson]

I do know what you mean of course - over a long Brucknerian experience I've enjoyed such visionary moments from conductors as different as Karajan and Giulini and Luisi - but I guess right now I'd rather relate those vistas to the Pastoral rather than the "visionary" temporally or spatially suspended, sonically dreamlike of inner or outer worlds......and as I've often said, there were those earlier Brucknerian performance traditions (Andreae, Knappertsbusch, Rosbaud etc) that got a little lost as the stereo era gathered its momentum and those sonic beauties and grandiosity could sometimes dominate......
Far from being quixotic (and I've occasionally called some of his ideas that myself for the sake of comparison...) I see Venzago as a consequence of those traditions....the opposite of "steady-state Bruckner" if you will....and Kna could be pretty wilful himself of course!

So now I'm off to walk among those Pastoral vistas IRL, before it gets too dark - with plenty of birdcalls!

(Yes - Parsifal after the 6th might work rather better than the Siegfried Funeral March before the 7th - what were they thinking of...but then how many would actually play it before the symphony anyway - bizarre programming for an album. If you had to place something there what about Sibelius - The Bard, Rakastava or another quiet contemplation.
As for the Gewandhaus - wow, yes! Never more thrilling than on those Schumann ed. Mahler Symphonies with Chaiilly, where our impassioned minds certainly meet!).

[Richard Barrett]

No 9th for me now though, I have to go out.

(I haven't listened to the Siegfried chunk yet!)

[Leinster Lass]

There's something by Bruckner - possibly his 8th symphony - droning away in the background as I browse the Forum. Nothing much seems to have happened in the last 30 minutes or so, apart from an apparently endless sequence of crescendi - what am I missing?

[jayne lee wilson]

There's something by Bruckner - possibly his 8th symphony - droning away in the background as I browse the Forum. Nothing much seems to have happened in the last 30 minutes or so, apart from an apparently endless sequence of crescendi - what am I missing?

Almost choking on my post-walk brandy....quick, a refill!....as a lifelong devoted Brucknerian, one of the greatest and most innovative of all Symphonic Composers, I better just say "No Comment"..... and lie down to recover from the walk, and seeing the lonely golden Shetland Pony again, and the shock of this post...

OR.....

"Possibly his 8th Symphony" is one of the funnier examples of lèse-majesté I've recently had the pleasure to encounter.

Like the Emperor in the film Amadeus saying to Mozart "too many notes", and Mozart replying "which notes exactly did you have in mind...?",
I'm tempted to ask: exactly which 30 Minutes did you find so tedious?

Please try to browse here.....

http://www.for3.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?116-Bruckner

...oh wait a minute, that's where we're at....

OK, read more, mark well and inwardly digest. But y'know, the only way to understand any great music which baffles you is...... to listen to it, again and again, for 40 days and 40 nights forsaking all other, until......some epiphany descends.....as the shapes and patterns begin to resolve....
Take it one movement at a time; there's a lot to take in.

I still listen to my adored Bruckner in that way sometimes, even after over 40 years of devoted listening and love....

His music has sustained me all my life, and continues to do so...I don't believe in any specific God, but I believe in Bruckner.

[Richard Barrett]

I feel the same way about Bruckner as you do, Jayne. But one has to be tuned into it. Having it "droning away in the background as you browse the Forum" isn't the best way for the unconvinced to have their moment of revelation, I think. Not that I've ever had a problem being convinced by Bruckner, ever since the first time I heard his music, there were no obstacles to overcome.

[Edgy 2]

I feel the same way about Bruckner as you do, Jayne. But one has to be tuned into it. Having it "droning away in the background as you browse the Forum" isn't the best way for the unconvinced to have their moment of revelation, I think. Not that I've ever had a problem being convinced by Bruckner, ever since the first time I heard his music, there were no obstacles to overcome.

That's not the way to treat any music IMO

[Leinster Lass]

Almost choking on my post-walk brandy....quick, a refill!....as a lifelong devoted Brucknerian, one of the greatest and most innovative of all Symphonic Composers, I better just say "No Comment"..... and lie down to recover from the walk, and seeing the lonely golden Shetland Pony again, and the shock of this post...

OR.....

"Possibly his 8th Symphony" is one of the funnier examples of lèse-majesté I've recently had the pleasure to encounter.

Like the Emperor in the film Amadeus saying to Mozart "too many notes", and Mozart replying "which notes exactly did you have in mind...?",
I'm tempted to ask: exactly which 30 Minutes did you find so tedious?

Please try to browse here.....

http://www.for3.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?116-Bruckner

...oh wait a minute, that's where we're at....

OK, read more, mark well and inwardly digest. But y'know, the only way to understand any great music which baffles you is...... to listen to it, again and again, for 40 days and 40 nights forsaking all other, until......some epiphany descends.....as the shapes and patterns begin to resolve....
Take it one movement at a time; there's a lot to take in.

I still listen to my adored Bruckner in that way sometimes, even after over 40 years of devoted listening and love....

His music has sustained me all my life, and continues to do so...I don't believe in any specific God, but I believe in Bruckner.

I don't actually have 40 days and 40 nights to spare, Jayne, but luckily there's more than enough non-baffling music out there to keep me happy.
It's not the length that bothers me about Bruckner's symphonies, it's the Chekhovian passage of prolonged periods of time during which nothing seems to happen to arouse my interest. I find that I derive much more pleasure from 2 or 3 minutes of Mahler than an hour of Mr B. Happily for me, I do believe in a specific God - he was born in 1756 and died in 1791, but will live on for ever.
(I normally tune into Lyric FM around 4.00 p.m. but their playlist is very Christmassy at the moment, so I thought I'd give Radio 3 a try this afternoon.)

[visualnickmos]

I don't actually have 40 days and 40 nights to spare, Jayne, but luckily there's more than enough non-baffling music out there to keep me happy.
It's not the length that bothers me about Bruckner's symphonies, it's the Chekhovian passage of prolonged periods of time during which nothing seems to happen to arouse my interest. I find that I derive much more pleasure from 2 or 3 minutes of Mahler than an hour of Mr B. Happily for me, I do believe in a specific God - he was born in 1756 and died in 1791, but will live on for ever.
(I normally tune into Lyric FM around 4.00 p.m. but their playlist is very Christmassy at the moment, so I thought I'd give Radio 3 a try this afternoon.)

Any good?

[Leinster Lass]

Any good?

I normally listen to 'Breakfast' (Sunday to Friday), Private Passions, Jazz Record Requests, some Lunchtime Concerts and snatches of Through The Night and, yes, they're all good, thanks!
Oh yes, and Composer of the Week, depending on who the Composer is.

[Richard Barrett]

luckily there's more than enough non-baffling music out there to keep me happy.

What's wrong with baffling music?

[jayne lee wilson]

I don't actually have 40 days and 40 nights to spare, Jayne, but luckily there's more than enough non-baffling music out there to keep me happy.
It's not the length that bothers me about Bruckner's symphonies, it's the Chekhovian passage of prolonged periods of time during which nothing seems to happen to arouse my interest. I find that I derive much more pleasure from 2 or 3 minutes of Mahler than an hour of Mr B. Happily for me, I do believe in a specific God - he was born in 1756 and died in 1791, but will live on for ever.
(I normally tune into Lyric FM around 4.00 p.m. but their playlist is very Christmassy at the moment, so I thought I'd give Radio 3 a try this afternoon.)

Tempted to say, when you are in a hole stop digging, but.....

What do you mean by Chekhovian? A great writer who understood emptiness and nothingness, the often unbearable futility and suffering of human existence, like no other - except, perhaps, Franz Kafka.

There is more happening in a minute or two of Bruckner's Symphonies than a good ten or 15 minutes of most others, so.....yes, da capo, as I said earlier: you simply don't understand this music and only much more listening could ever change that.

But if all you want from music is that it should "arouse your interest" more or less immediately, on first aquaintance, then....
Not much more to say. Back to Like/Dislike. Your loss, not that of Anton Bruckner. His music, despite overwhelming obstacles of textual variants, editorial confusion and profound - profound musical misunderstanding since his death, will always be there, long after we have passed. It is somewhat akin to the plays of Shakespeare in this respect.

I think you'll find that Bruckner, like Mozart, has a reasonable chance of "living on forever"..... they have both got this far, thanks to the devoted works, the labours of love, of several generations of scholars, musicians, performers, producers and yes - listeners.

[Leinster Lass]

Tempted to say, when you are in a hole stop digging, but.....

What do you mean by Chekhovian? A great writer who understood emptiness and nothingness, the often unbearable futility and suffering of human existence, like no other - except, perhaps, Franz Kafka.

There is more happening in a minute or two of Bruckner's Symphonies than a good ten or 15 minutes of most others, so.....yes, da capo, as I said earlier: you simply don't understand this music and only much more listening could ever change that.

But if all you want from music is that it should "arouse your interest" more or less immediately, on first aquaintance, then....
Not much more to say. Back to Like/Dislike. Your loss, not that of Anton Bruckner. His music, despite overwhelming obstacles of textual variants, editorial confusion and profound - profound musical misunderstanding since his death, will always be there, long after we have passed. It is somewhat akin to the plays of Shakespeare in this respect.

I think you'll find that Bruckner, like Mozart, has a reasonable chance of "living on forever"..... they have both got this far, thanks to the devoted works, the labours of love, of several generations of scholars, musicians, performers, producers and yes - listeners.

Dear Jayne

I hope I'm humble enough to admit that it's possible that I 'just don't understand' what there is to Bruckner's music and, in view of the degree of conviction with which you offer this opinion , perhaps I never will. However, I would like to think that, despite the increasing ravages wrought by the advance of time, I still have sufficient residual brainpower, intellectual capacity and emotional curiosity to remain genuinely puzzled as to why it takes AB so long to apparently say so little. Perhaps you could recommend a particular movement of a particular symphony and provide me with a few ideas on what to listen out for? One of the movements of the 9th symphony always reminds me of a steam train puffing away up a steepish incline on a heritage railway, but that's about exciting as it gets for me.

As far as bafflement goes, it's always baffled me how Mozart, many of whose works offer me unparalleled intellectual stimulation while also providing unparalleled enjoyment and emotional uplift, succeeds where other composers fail.

I wonder if AB actually ever wrote anything that completely satisfied him - I ask, in all seriousness, only because there seem to be a bewildering number of editions and versions of most of his symphonies, the result, in some cases I understand, of changes made or suggested by 'friends'.

I did actually attend a performance of a Chekhov play while at university (in the UK) - I forget which one (which play, not which university). There was great excitement at the prospect of seeing Nyree Dawn Porter, who had recently suffered a major indignity at the hands of Eric Porter on TV, at our local theatre. The only thing I can remember about the play is that some old chap fired a pistol and then shouted 'Missed' - which probably summed up the evening for me.

If, as has been known to happen, I feel up to confronting the issue of the sheer horror of the pointless emptiness of our time spent on this planet, which seems to be of such interest to 'the other Anton' and Mr K, I'll gladly listen to any amount of Mahler. Much as I admire Sibelius, I'm afraid I would have been on the Austrian's side had I witnessed the discussion during which GM apparently said that music should encompass the whole world and JS effectively replied with whatever the Finnish is for 'nuts'. Mahler's 6th depicts every emotion I've felt to hope/fear to feel, and yet its 80 minutes or so just seem to fly by - without too many repeated crescendi and Mozart pretty well covers much of the same ground in K421.

[Mario]

Happily for me, I do believe in a specific God - he was born in 1756 and died in 1791.

You’re not very good with dates are you?

The dates you should be referring to regarding THE God are actually 1770 to 1827. As a clue, his birthday anniversary is being celebrated throughout this year worldwide.

Rathfarnhamgirl, this is my first reply to one of your postings. I hope you will excuse my jesting. Beethoven and Mozart are two rather special individuals, aren’t they?

I’m steering clear of the Bruckner discussion!

Best wishes,

Mario

[Petrushka]

Dear Jayne

I hope I'm humble enough to admit that it's possible that I 'just don't understand' what there is to Bruckner's music and, in view of the degree of conviction with which you offer this opinion , perhaps I never will. However, I would like to think that, despite the increasing ravages wrought by the advance of time, I still have sufficient residual brainpower, intellectual capacity and emotional curiosity to remain genuinely puzzled as to why it takes AB so long to apparently say so little. Perhaps you could recommend a particular movement of a particular symphony and provide me with a few ideas on what to listen out for? One of the movements of the 9th symphony always reminds me of a steam train puffing away up a steepish incline on a heritage railway, but that's about exciting as it gets for me.

As far as bafflement goes, it's always baffled me how Mozart, many of whose works offer me unparalleled intellectual stimulation while also providing unparalleled enjoyment and emotional uplift, succeeds where other composers fail.

I wonder if AB actually ever wrote anything that completely satisfied him - I ask, in all seriousness, only because there seem to be a bewildering number of editions and versions of most of his symphonies, the result, in some cases I understand, of changes made or suggested by 'friends'.

I did actually attend a performance of a Chekhov play while at university (in the UK) - I forget which one (which play, not which university). There was great excitement at the prospect of seeing Nyree Dawn Porter, who had recently suffered a major indignity at the hands of Eric Porter on TV, at our local theatre. The only thing I can remember about the play is that some old chap fired a pistol and then shouted 'Missed' - which probably summed up the evening for me.

If, as has been known to happen, I feel up to confronting the issue of the sheer horror of the pointless emptiness of our time spent on this planet, which seems to be of such interest to 'the other Anton' and Mr K, I'll gladly listen to any amount of Mahler. Much as I admire Sibelius, I'm afraid I would have been on the Austrian's side had I witnessed the discussion during which GM apparently said that music should encompass the whole world and JS effectively replied with whatever the Finnish is for 'nuts'. Mahler's 6th depicts every emotion I've felt to hope/fear to feel, and yet its 80 minutes or so just seem to fly by - without too many repeated crescendi and Mozart pretty well covers much of the same ground in K421.

I agree with pretty much all that Jayne has written though expressed with far more eloquence than I could muster. You've mentioned time in your posts and awareness of time is exactly what you need to lose! In listening to Bruckner, you need to forget all notions of time because his music exists in a different dimension. So remove clocks, watches, mobile phones etc from your listening room and let the music happen in its own space without any regard for the human concept of time. If you have to look at your watch during a Bruckner symphony then you've lost the battle!

I started listening to Bruckner when I was 20 in 1974 and was hooked immediately. Having come to it via Wagner and Mahler the length of the symphonies left me undaunted and they have become increasingly important to me as I've grown older. Another thing you learn is that there is not a single superfluous note in Bruckner: every note means something! I don't particularly care too much for the 'cathedral in sound' analogy you hear so often with Bruckner so think instead of each symphony as a journey with all the triumphs and pitfalls that that implies.

As to where to start, I would begin with No 4 or No 7 neither of which are too difficult to grasp. The constant transformation of themes is, perhaps, easier to pick up in these and you will give a cry of delight when you s spot a new one as I still do even after close on 50 years of listening!

[Joseph K]

What collection i.e. boxed set of his symphonies do Brucknerians recommend?