Bruckner: Symphony no. 7 BaL 13/12/14

[ardcarp]

marmoreal

Ooh, I've looked it up in Chambers. Just learned a new word!

[Nick Armstrong]

Ooh, I've looked it up in Chambers. Just learned a new word!

My gift to you this yuletide!

[Richard Tarleton]

Inspired by JD I tried giving my 43-year old LPs of the 1960s Haitink a spin earlier - haven't listened to them in ages. Sadly too much surface noise - shall I get the CD? I do have Haitink 1978 (alongside some other versions), and have heard the great man perform it with various orchestras. I was reminded this afternoon of something Hornspieler said about that magical entry of the horns during the Wagner tuba coda...where is Hornspieler?...My ultimate symphony

[groovydavidii]

Another aspect of Bruckner's 7th. Does anyone remember that coruscating "Music and Politics" lecture given by philosopher George Steiner some years ago. Among many topics he examines, are the censorious attitudes certain thinkers and political leaders held regarding music, basically it must be regulated, because it is too powerful. Interestingly, he comments on Furtwangler's two performance of the 7th, the latter performed by candlelight amidst the ruination of 1943/44 Berlin–what an overwhelming experience the latter must have been. And, it was the slow movement of Bruckner's 7th German Radio played the whole day upon the death of Hitler. Steiner says he has to admit, what an inspired choice that was.

[visualnickmos]

..... And, it was the slow movement of Bruckner's 7th German Radio played the whole day upon the death of Hitler. Steiner says he has to admit, what an inspired choice that was.

?

[Petrushka]

?

You have to be aware, as Steiner certainly was, of the way in which the Nazis used classical music for their own ends and here doing so in the Third Reich's dying moments. So, yes. unpalatable as it may seem, it is an inspired choice. The Nazis adopted the music of Bruckner for their own purposes almost to the extent that they did with Wagner and here is Bruckner lamenting the death of Wagner.

[ardcarp]

One must not rule out that even perpetrators of heinous crimes can have a 'soft' side which may include appreciation of art and music. As far as regimes (Nazi or Soviet) are concerned I get far less exercised about the music they adopted than about the music they banned.

[vibratoforever]

"The 'lecture' approach won't do in this day and age. The days are gone, where the BBC can come on and say "now sit up and pay attention, over the next 45 minutes we're going to educate you and make you a better person".

This Beef Oven is a construct of your own imagination and insecurities. I have a few recordings of BAL from the past 40 years and memories of many more and such notions have never occurred to me. Far more of a problem is the BBC treating the classical music audience as simpletons, as evidenced by tv coverage of the Proms.

[Flay]

"The 'lecture' approach won't do in this day and age. The days are gone, where the BBC can come on and say "now sit up and pay attention, over the next 45 minutes we're going to educate you and make you a better person".

Why not? I have no problem with listening to a lecture - providing the subject matter is well-researched and decently presented.

Far more of a problem is the BBC treating the classical music audience as simpletons, as evidenced by tv coverage of the Proms.

I cannot argue with that.

[P. G. Tipps]

One must not rule out that even perpetrators of heinous crimes can have a 'soft' side which may include appreciation of art and music. As far as regimes (Nazi or Soviet) are concerned I get far less exercised about the music they adopted than about the music they banned.

Bruckner pressed all the right buttons for the Nazis.

He was an Upper Austrian 'peasant' who was widely mocked by Viennese liberal 'intellectuals', much like the early Hitler himself. Both men were born in or around Linz so there would have been the inevitable local pride on the part of the Fuhrer. Bruckner's music is grand and imposing and therefore, like his adored Wagner's, ideal as a tool for state propaganda.

If there was one composer who was as far removed as is possible from the Nazis and their devious political cunning and racism it was this composer. Despite being a deeply-conservative Catholic he is reported to have referred to the 'Honourable Israelites' and, indeed, many of his close friends and associates were Jews. There was clearly not an ounce of anti-Semitism or bigotry in the man, and there is no evidence he had any interest in politics whatsoever, being, it seems, completely immersed in his music apart, of course, from faithfully observing his daily prayers, chasing girls half his age, and drinking loads of beer.

It is even sadder that anything as sublime as the closing bars of the 7th's Adagio should still be associated to this day with a tribute to Hitler on his death. Unfortunately, the reported dedication by the composer to Wagner on his own death certainly didn't help either in this regard. In retrospect, it was an obvious choice for the Nazi radio controllers.

Poor old Bruckner ... wholly misunderstood and unfairly shunned by some for eternity it seems.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - the optimistic 18th & 19th Century idea that the Arts have a "civilizing" effect on people was blown out of the water in the 20th. At most, the Arts merely give "moral" (highly inappropriate vocabulary in some contexts) succour for people to do what they believe to be the right thing to do. The thought of these people (for whom no description carries sufficient contempt) coming home after a hard day's work of torture and murder, and finding solace in Bruckner (or Bach or Wagner or Beethoven or Mozart ... ) is one I find inexpressively repugnant.

[visualnickmos]

Yes - the optimistic 18th & 19th Century idea that the Arts have a "civilizing" effect on people was blown out of the water in the 20th. At most, the Arts merely give "moral" (highly inappropriate vocabulary in some contexts) succour for people to do what they believe to be the right thing to do. The thought of these people (for whom no description carries sufficient contempt) coming home after a hard day's work of torture and murder, and finding solace in Bruckner (or Bach or Wagner or Beethoven or Mozart ... ) is one I find inexpressively repugnant.

Exactly. It illustrates the counter-argument to the post which said ".....that even perpetrators of heinous crimes can have a 'soft' side which may include appreciation of art and music." I don't see a connection between a 'soft side' (whatever that may mean) and an appreciation of music and art.

[doversoul1]

I don't see a connection between a 'soft side' (whatever that may mean) and an appreciation of music and art.

I'd think of it (soft side) as humanity which is not always obvious in many people in many circumstances.

[Roehre]

... The thought of these people (for whom no description carries sufficient contempt) coming home after a hard day's work of torture and murder, and finding solace in Bruckner (or Bach or Wagner or Beethoven or Mozart ... ) is one I find inexpressively repugnant.

Exactly.
but the truth is that e.g. Heydrich, Reichsprotektor in Bohemia (whose assassination was revenged by the execution of the complete population of Lidice) and effectively SS-chef Himmler's 2nd in command, played violin for relaxation (and well on top of that) and was a composer in his own right (as his father was), and -again- far from a bad one too. Remarkably the two pieces I have seen (a romance for violin & orchestra and a string trio) were in a hindemithian manner, Hindemith being one of those according to the Nazis Entartete composers.
Incredible, being a professional murderer as well as a quite accomplished musician.

[Beef Oven!]

"The 'lecture' approach won't do in this day and age. The days are gone, where the BBC can come on and say "now sit up and pay attention, over the next 45 minutes we're going to educate you and make you a better person".

This Beef Oven is a construct of your own imagination and insecurities. I have a few recordings of BAL from the past 40 years and memories of many more and such notions have never occurred to me. Far more of a problem is the BBC treating the classical music audience as simpletons, as evidenced by tv coverage of the Proms.

Its how the BBC used to be - I enjoyed many, many hours of BBC TV and Radio growing up in the 1960s and 1970s and learnt very much indeed from the broadcasts. But times and people change, and the paternalistic/didactic approach is anachronistic.

It would be nice, I suppose, for Bal/CDR to continue the 40 year old format for the coming 40 years, but it might not be the best policy for the type of audience there'll be in 2055.

I suspect that the audience figures for Bal/CDR have gone down in the last 5-10 years. If that's tue, it's a good enough reason to consider a new format.