Bruckner: Symphony no. 7 BaL 13/12/14

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If the first movement is actually played Allegro moderato, as marked, the balance is not such a problem. The modern convention, however, has been to drag it out into something more like an Adagio, which is not what Bruckner called for.

Yes - the real ear-opener of the 1943 Böhm was the fiery pace he set. I'd love to have a modern version that combined the urgency and depth of that performance (the '70s version is very good, but slower).

[waldo]

Yes - the real ear-opener of the 1943 Böhm was the fiery pace he set. I'd love to have a modern version that combined the urgency and depth of that performance (the '70s version is very good, but slower).

You could always try Herreweghe. His opening movement clocks in at 18'14. Bohm's 1943 does it in 19'03. You could also try Harnoncourt, who does it in roughly the same time as Bohm and still manages to suggest a true allegro moderato.

I seem to remember you are not opposed to period performances(!), so I would have thought the Herreweghe would appeal to you. Gut strings, smaller string sections, period-correct wind and brass. The sound, if the research is correct, Bruckner would have known himself. The flow and push of the opening movement does take some getting used to after the usual epic-sluggish interpretations; it can also seem - I thought so anyway - a bit inflexible, as we move through the transitions without much rubato. But after a few listens, it has come to feel perfectly natural and - I shouldn't say this, should I? - right! Much closer to Schubert than Wagner; flowing and lyrical, rather than shrouded in a dense, mystical fog. Also, as you would expect, the tonal flavours are somewhat different: earthier, to my ears.

[Roehre]

You could always try Herreweghe. His opening movement clocks in at 18'14. Bohm's 1943 does it in 19'03. You could also try Harnoncourt, who does it in roughly the same time as Bohm and still manages to suggest a true allegro moderato.....

Haitink's first recording with the Concertgebouw (I haven't got a later at hand) clocks 18'09

[Roehre]

The symphony is another magic product of Bruckners, though you can argue that the finale is a little on the short side after such monumental two first movements. But this is not the question here.....

As it occurs also in the 6th symphony and the string quintet (which ends rather weirdly IMHO) - but is a treat of many pre-beethoven symphonies, e.g. Mozart's Prague [and what about the Eroica ]

[waldo]

Haitink's first recording with the Concertgebouw (I haven't got a later at hand) clocks 18'09

Yes, you're right! I've got that recording, but it is one of (many) Bruckner recordings I don't know well enough. I've also got his one with Chicago (2007) and that opening movement clocks in at - wait for it - 21'33!

[mathias broucek]

The symphony is another magic product of Bruckners, though you can argue that the finale is a little on the short side after such monumental two first movements. But this is not the question here.

I have heard many Bruckner 7s live and by far the most outstanding performances were by Celibidache in Munich. The CDs don't do this enough credit, though they are for me the best versions around. The Berlin Philharmonic recording is outstanding too, more spacious still than his Munich recordings but with an immense build-up of tension.

Nothing else out there can really compete, sorry.

The Sony DVD of Celi doing the 7th with the MPO in Tokyo is far better than the EMI CD. If you like the Celi,it's well worth acquiring. It comes with DVDs of MPO performances of the 6th (in Munich - same as EMI CD), 8th (Tokyo - same as Altus CD) and a CD of the 4th (Vienna). The 8th and (particularly) 4th are pretty special.

On the whole, I find Celi's 7th less convincing than his staggering 4th or his 8th. I'm not sure the music can take the weight of the tempo in the same way that the 8th does. That said, last time I listened to it I heard detail that I'd never noticed before....

[mathias broucek]

Yes - the real ear-opener of the 1943 Böhm was the fiery pace he set. I'd love to have a modern version that combined the urgency and depth of that performance (the '70s version is very good, but slower).

[Bryn]

The Sony DVD of Celi doing the 7th with the MPO in Tokyo is far better than the EMI CD. If you like the Celi,it's well worth acquiring. It comes with DVDs of MPO performances of the 6th (in Munich - same as EMI CD), 8th (Tokyo - same as Altus CD) and a CD of the 4th (Vienna). The 8th and (particularly) 4th are pretty special.

On the whole, I find Celi's 7th less convincing than his staggering 4th or his 8th. I'm not sure the music can take the weight of the tempo in the same way that the 8th does. That said, last time I listened to it I heard detail that I'd never noticed before....

" ... a CD of the 4th (Vienna)". A 4th which stretches over 2 CDs, surely, or have they now squeezed it onto a single CD?

[Radames]

Length

" ... a CD of the 4th (Vienna)". A 4th which stretches over 2 CDs, surely, or have they now squeezed it onto a single CD?

In minutes and seconds Celi is slower than the others but in musical tempo he's perfect - at least in the concert hall. The tempi will sound too slow on disk, and that shows the limitations of any disk and is the reason why Celi hated disks. Furtwangler was the same - he was horrified by how slow his performances sounded on disk versus live.

Celi's Bruckner 7 from Berlin (available as Blu-ray) is even slower in timing than his Munich versions but probably unparalleled in intensity, so the tempo of that actually sounds a lot better on disk.

In any case, all his recorded performances are unparalleled in the phrasing and orchestral balance and colour. Also, the architecture of the symphony comes out the way it should.

Karajan's last recording of the 7th is surprisingly good actually as well. As is the Sanderling with the Danish orchestra. Otherwise Giulini.

[mathias broucek]

" ... a CD of the 4th (Vienna)". A 4th which stretches over 2 CDs, surely, or have they now squeezed it onto a single CD?

Yes, it's 2. I don't have the timings to hand but some Celi Bruckner spills onto an unecessary 2nd disc due to the quantity of applause included (IIRC the EMI 7th would fit on one disc)

[jayne lee wilson]

In minutes and seconds Celi is slower than the others but in musical tempo he's perfect - at least in the concert hall. The tempi will sound too slow on disk, and that shows the limitations of any disk and is the reason why Celi hated disks. Furtwangler was the same - he was horrified by how slow his performances sounded on disk versus live.

Celi's Bruckner 7 from Berlin (available as Blu-ray) is even slower in timing than his Munich versions but probably unparalleled in intensity, so the tempo of that actually sounds a lot better on disk.

In any case, all his recorded performances are unparalleled in the phrasing and orchestral balance and colour. Also, the architecture of the symphony comes out the way it should.

Karajan's last recording of the 7th is surprisingly good actually as well. As is the Sanderling with the Danish orchestra. Otherwise Giulini.

Surely, it can't be an inherent limitation in "disks" themselves, can it? The tempi won't actually be different, unless there's a serious problem with the CD player or its mains frequency! ...

I take it you refer to the "limitations" of recordings generally here i.e CDs, files, tapes, LPs etc... If a given conductor hates his or her recordings on playback (many do, or just ignore them as over and done with), isn't that because they are analytically naked to her ear, since she is no longer in the moment of performance, where everything felt instinctive? So she hears it as a mere listener hears it, with all the variations in response that this implies... some disquieting questions raised here.

With Celi then, you're left with the paradox of measuring, or at least comparing his (reluctantly!) recorded performances (which Radames, you suggest don't give a true account of the live experience, or at least yours and Celi's) with all the others; which might make choice and judgement a little problematic!

Listening to the 1991 Munich performance of the 6th**, I can scarcely imagine it better done in the fast movements; but for me, the adagio does indeed seem too... too long, rather than too slow, out of proportion to the rest. This is what my ear, brain and heart tell me in my present "moment of listening" (and I admire a wide range of readings, from Rozhdestvensky and Klemperer, to Barenboim/Chicago and Venzago) .... but one day I might seek it out again and.... who knows?

**Colin Davis' 2002 LSO Live account attempts something similar... and almost works for me...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I seem to remember you are not opposed to period performances

I think I may have let that slip on a couple of occasions.

Thanks for the steer towards Herreweghe, Waldo - and, especially for your summary of the performance. Bruckner (especially, for some reason, the Fourth Symphony) often reminds me of the Schubert of the last Symphony, so that wouldn't be a problem. I just never got round to investigating Herreweghe's Bruckner recordings - I like his creamy Bach recordings and his Pierrot Lunaire, but found his Beethoven Missa Solemnis rather lacking in power, so had presupposed that his Bruckner would have a similar lack of fire. A prejudice I shall ensure I amend.

[Karafan]

A very strange choice of reviewer .

As any fool knows, Richard Osborne is the go-to choice for Bruckner

[Alison]

As any fool knows, Richard Osborne is the go-to choice for Bruckner

Quite. I'd have been excited now had it been RO.

[kea]

Listening to the 1991 Munich performance of the 6th**, I can scarcely imagine it better done in the fast movements; but for me, the adagio does indeed seem too... too long, rather than too slow, out of proportion to the rest. This is what my ear, brain and heart tell me in my present "moment of listening" (and I admire a wide range of readings, from Rozhdestvensky and Klemperer, to Barenboim/Chicago and Venzago) .... but one day I might seek it out again and.... who knows?

I've found I have similar reservations about Celibidache—the sections are not quite in proportion to one another. Often he did this in order to create overwhelming emotional effects—for instance, while much in the onward drive of the Adagio has been sacrificed (particularly the 'funeral march' sections), one can hear that it was done in order to add weight and power to the climax and, especially, the coda, which fades into nothing like an audible representation of death, unlike any other performance I've heard. As a live performance, where one doesn't know what's coming next and the tension is sustained, this would work remarkably well. On disc, well, it's easy to compare it to all sorts of other recordings that are less 'instinctive' and more planned, not really a fair comparison to either side.

Organising everything around the experience of performance (from the audience's point of view) was probably originated by Chopin, whose forms are notoriously lopsided on paper (e.g. the Polonaise-Fantaisie, third Scherzo, Ballades etc). He made it quite successful though, and I wonder if Bruckner took that as a lesson of sorts. Certainly I've seen claims that the coda of the 8th symphony is insufficient to bear the weight of the previous 80 minutes, whereas in the concert hall, it's not only right and proportionate but inevitable (whereas the 60+ bars of pure C major Beethoven used to 'ground the tension' of his 5th symphony seem quite excessive by comparison).