Bruckner Symphony no. 2

[jayne lee wilson]

Thank you Jayne. I was curious. I am a subscriber to Gramophone’s digital club with archives/reviews archive/magazine, but I didn’t think to check. . And taking your views into account, I’ll hang fire for now.

Which HvK SHM-CD? #2? What’s SOR? (it’s late and my brain is slow!!)

Currently listening to my CD of Harnoncourt’s ‘Workshop’ on 4th movement of Bruckner 9. Very revealing and I would recommend this 2 disc set. It doesn’t have a complete, completed performance of the 4th movement, but it’s an excellent verbal and orchestral essay.

I’ve been playing the 4th movement of #9 as a stand alone over some days now, as an attempt to move on from my 3-movement stoicism. It’s working! I love Wildner’s version on Naxos (always did), preferring it to Rattle’s. The only other version I had until 5 minutes ago is Peter Jan Marthe's. But ....
.... I’ve had me cheque book out tonight in honour of (more) Bruckner and as I type, I’m downloading from Qobuz Gerd Schaller’s 4, 7 & 9 (with Finale completed by W. Carragan, rev. 2010).





*************


The Bruckner discussion on this forum is getting significant. But it’s spread over several different threads (including some good Bruckner commentary on the ‘Refusing Mahler 10’ thread). I’m not sure that amalgamating them would necessarily help, though. Any thoughts, anyone?




.

Yes it's the shm-cd of Karajan's 2nd. I'm dubious about sonic benefits from better physical quality of the discs themselves, but some turn out to be, or sound like, remastering. So - Sale Or Return, from Amazon, make the comparison with the original boxset issue and.....

I guess you could have a Bruckner thread, but it could get unmanageably long unless there could be subdivision into various symphonies...that might work....
But it's not so bad that discussion of No.2 strays to 6 or whatever if there's a conductor-connection.... it's almost impossible to keep good, wide-ranging discussion "on topic" in some strict way. I'd say steady as she goes for now. Permanently under review !

***

Like you I'd had misgivings about that Venzago 6th. I've played it over (and over) the last few days, often repeating the slow movement which does have extraordinarily variable tempi - at first it seems baffling - doesn't seem to work, like a failed experiment.... But after several hearings it does click, finally I'm with Venzago now. In a way it's laughably obvious - he's matching this wildest, most imaginative yet most concise of Bruckner symphonies with equally wild, rapid and volatile tempi and phrasing, the most extreme in his cycle. The contrast between quick scherzo/v-e-r-y s-l-o-w trio is extraordinary. It really makes you listen. Finale Dynamics are quite tasty too!
Often the 6th's adagio comes as a respite from the drama and speed going on before, or around it - no wonder Venzago wanted to do something close to the opposite - and then find a brief haven in the trio... it's quite something, his 6th.

But heavens - it does take time for the (willing!) listener to see - to hear what he's trying to do. Very exciting when I did...! The sort of reading, so easy for a reviewer to dismiss, that would need more than one listen each time you return to it.

[jayne lee wilson]

So, back on topic.... ...

Always trawling for early recordings of the first three symphonies - quite rare - I was thrilled to discover Franz Konwitschny with the Berlin Radio SO playing No.2 in a modified Haas edition(**), recorded live in 1951.

You need a little tolerance with some compression or lack of dynamic variety (climaxes are often good though, with penetrative brass and thunderous timpani) and some peak distortion, but otherwise its fairly good 50s mono. The word I found for the performance was "radiant". At first seemingly a grandly Romantic, moderately-paced approach (64'40) with weighty climaxes, I soon delighted in the warmth and expressiveness of the supple phrasing and fluid, flexible pulse. A deep dark and noble adagio, and then the scherzo attack seems a little soft - but listen to the terrific clarity in those scurrying double-bass lines (very powerful throughout). Gorgeous, songful trio.
(And despite the recording's limitations, you detect a greater dynamic inflexion here too, perhaps relating to the greater density of such markings in the rarely recorded first published editions).
But it was the finale that really thrilled me - after all I said about Venzago, Konwitschny is almost as daring in his tempo variabile here, especially in an amazing development section, and you might even think that his rubato surpasses Venzago in its naturalness. The end is truly cumulative with a great sense of excitement (and variable tempo right up to the end!) in the coda.
As with the often waspish Andreae, but delivered with a much grander rhetoric, this recording is a privileged view of an older, almost lost, Brucknerian performance tradition, one I would love to see younger conductors attempting. If you haven't ventured much beyond the Wand/Karajan/Haitink/Jochum etc. stereo catalogue you'd hear them in a new light after this one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000035TX/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

(**) So, you get the horn at the adagio's close, but other restorations in the outer movements, and a passage for the horn in the adagio are left out. The F minor mass quote just before the coda is still in - for which relief...
I think Andreae does something similar (but leaving out some scherzo repeats), showing that conductors were already aware of Haas' own editorial decisions. You effectively hear the later Carragan 1877 (or corrected Nowak) but with that Horn solo and Mass quote still there.
The Berlin Classics booklet says "original version" front and back (presumably meaning Haas, though no name or date is there). But in the note it says "the last of the three different versions from 1877"...!
Plus ça change....

[jayne lee wilson]

AS the FoR3 Bruckner passion finally cools, a few further comments...

The oldest Bruckner 2nd I have, the 1953 Music & Arts restoration of Volkmar Andreae with the Vienna SO, sounds like Bruckner from the source - Schubertian-quick rather than Wagnerian-dead, that sound of Old Vienna again, rubato and phrase as natural as breathing, what the flowers in the meadow tell me; swift and cogent, but always with time for a song. Bruckner before the stonemasons moved in, at the end of the thread of performance style perhaps leading back to Bruckner’s lifetime, the tradition of Knappertsbusch and Schuricht. Andreae moves with ease between the flowing and the jaunty; from a waltz to a waspish attack. The finale is often astonishing in its contrasts: very pacy and dramatic, but how naturally it can change down to blossom and unfold at leisure. (One can’t really hope to recreate this tradition now, so It’s always going to be challenging for performers to play Bruckner convincingly this way; Venzago comes closest, often thrillingly).

The mono sound for Andreae is a little below average for the time, sometimes a bit wispy, but the transfers are fine, dynamics more than good enough, and it shouldn’t give offence. There’s so much to learn from early recordings, of early Bruckner especially, but what a shame there are so few of the first three. His edition as the excellent notes detail is “modified Haas”: 1935 Urfassung but without the passages Haas restored, and omitting longer 2nd scherzo repeats. So this brings it closer to the first printing of 1892 - effectively like Carragan but with the horn solo at the adagio’s close. Andreae also plays the 7th and 8th in their first published editions and one wonders if their great detail of expressive and dynamic markings informed his interpretative approach generally.

Had Venzago heard this? It would be no surprise… but listen to that F Minor mass elaboration just before the finale development: here, those irreplaceably lost Vienna Symphony strings are - sweetly intimate, a natural melodic extension, part of the whole; Venzago’s are bated-melodic-breath, a visit to another realm before the symphony resumes.

***
No wonder I found it difficult to enjoy Jochum in Dresden or Munich, or Wand’s Cologne-cycle recording after those; we’re back in the unified-tempo approach with scarcely any variation across the whole first movement. (I found it hard to progress much further). Jochum does play various sections in different tempi of course - his finales are often very quick, but surprisingly stiff and metrical - there isn’t much flexibility let alone brief rubato, within them. There’s little transitioning, just sudden changes of gear - the approach which gave rise to the description often used of his interpretations as “stop-go”. It seems to short-change this music now, especially given the 2nd’s elusive character, often serenely pastoral, but with a busier, more eventful finale. So many well known Bruckner cycles suffer in this way: even Haitink, whose 1960s set has the virtues of (relatively) swift tempi and a lightness of orchestra touch, but can still be rather unyielding in phrase and pace within the section. (His approach didn’t change much later in the other works, merely becoming in Vienna at least, slower and grander).
(Franz Konwitschny, in a 1951 live reading with the Berlin Radio SO, shows how even a grandly intoned, more Romantic approach can still be wonderfully enlivened by that expressive suppleness and variable tempi found in such abundance in Andreae or Venzago; the performance style doesn’t have to be explicitly “Schubertian” to do this.)

***

The point, surely, in listening to - Venzago, Andreae, or whomsoever else you may discover, is to get away from - united or inflexible tempi, massiveness or grandiloquence of orchestral sound or steady-state phrasing dominating musical sense. You may tell them apart with the ease of familiarity but is there truly much difference between Wand, the later Haitink, Jochum etc…? Isn’t it all shades of the one thing, variations on a particular stereo-era Brucknerian theme?
I was as devoted as anyone to Karajan once; in the 2nd, his Berliners dazzle with their characteristic beauty and brilliance, but in the light of those more supple and agile performances aforementioned, I’m not sure how well it serves the actual music. It sounds to me now more as an example of a certain, perhaps unique orchestral attainment - one of sheer burning intensity, power and control.
.
***

So I was disappointed, going back to those older, deservedly-famous-or-not cycles. I felt “That was a way of putting it - not very satisfactory; a periphrastic study in a worn-out poetical fashion...…”

It does leave the road open for younger conductors to cast aside any misplaced “reverence” for whatever performance style or edition, and rediscover - to give us that swift, volatile, moment-to-moment Bruckner - perhaps even investigating more of those first published editions, far richer in expression marks. (Not that they should need them of course…trust the force, Yannick, trust the force..…)

[Beef Oven!]

Phew! Jayne, I can’t keep up with you!! Thanks for more really absorbing posts that I will relish the opportunity to work through. I’m sure I’m not the only one using your posts as reference points for new highways and byways on Bruckner!!

And I don’t think the forum’s Bruckner passion is cooling, we’re just taking a breather!

P.S. I’m now listening to Venzago’s Bruckner 6. I hope it can 'click' for me over the next few plays!

[PJPJ]

So, back on topic.... ...

Always trawling for early recordings of the first three symphonies - quite rare - I was thrilled to discover Franz Konwitschny with the Berlin Radio SO playing No.2 in a modified Haas edition(**), recorded live in 1951.

You need a little tolerance with some compression or lack of dynamic variety (climaxes are often good though, with penetrative brass and thunderous timpani) and some peak distortion, but otherwise its fairly good 50s mono. The word I found for the performance was "radiant". At first seemingly a grandly Romantic, moderately-paced approach (64'40) with weighty climaxes, I soon delighted in the warmth and expressiveness of the supple phrasing and fluid, flexible pulse. A deep dark and noble adagio, and then the scherzo attack seems a little soft - but listen to the terrific clarity in those scurrying double-bass lines (very powerful throughout). Gorgeous, songful trio.
(And despite the recording's limitations, you detect a greater dynamic inflexion here too, perhaps relating to the greater density of such markings in the rarely recorded first published editions).
But it was the finale that really thrilled me - after all I said about Venzago, Konwitschny is almost as daring in his tempo variabile here, especially in an amazing development section, and you might even think that his rubato surpasses Venzago in its naturalness. The end is truly cumulative with a great sense of excitement (and variable tempo right up to the end!) in the coda.
As with the often waspish Andreae, but delivered with a much grander rhetoric, this recording is a privileged view of an older, almost lost, Brucknerian performance tradition, one I would love to see younger conductors attempting. If you haven't ventured much beyond the Wand/Karajan/Haitink/Jochum etc. stereo catalogue you'd hear them in a new light after this one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000035TX/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

(**) So, you get the horn at the adagio's close, but other restorations in the outer movements, and a passage for the horn in the adagio are left out. The F minor mass quote just before the coda is still in - for which relief...
I think Andreae does something similar (but leaving out some scherzo repeats), showing that conductors were already aware of Haas' own editorial decisions. You effectively hear the later Carragan 1877 (or corrected Nowak) but with that Horn solo and Mass quote still there.
The Berlin Classics booklet says "original version" front and back (presumably meaning Haas, though no name or date is there). But in the note it says "the last of the three different versions from 1877"...!
Plus ça change....

Bruckner's Second with Konwitschny is also in this bargain box:

Brilliant Bruckner

which looks as though it may not be around for much longer......

Musicweb review

[visualnickmos]

Phew! Jayne, I can’t keep up with you!! Thanks for more really absorbing posts that I will relish the opportunity to work through. I’m sure I’m not the only one using your posts as reference points for new highways and byways on Bruckner!!

And I don’t think the forum’s Bruckner passion is cooling, we’re just taking a breather!

P.S. I’m now listening to Venzago’s Bruckner 6. I hope it can 'click' for me over the next few plays!

You're absolutely right. I've learned more about Bruckner from Jayne's wonderful eruditions than I would ever bother to do by reading books, etc.... and the more I learn, the more I want to investigate, discover and enjoy. Cheers, Jayne!

[ahinton]

Your absolutely right. I've learned more about Bruckner from Jayne's wonderful eruditions than I would ever bother to do by reading books, etc.... and the more I learn, the more I want to investigate, discover and enjoy. Cheers, Jayne!

I'll certainly go along with that!

[jayne lee wilson]

Bruckner's Second with Konwitschny is also in this bargain box:

Brilliant Bruckner

which looks as though it may not be around for much longer......

Musicweb review

Thanks for those links PJ - the Rogner does look interesting, though I've too often found Brilliant's SQ displeasing to buy the box. I'm puzzled that the reviewer could only describe Konwitschny as powerful and direct though, given his detailed appreciation of Rogner's subtleties (and insightful comments about Karajan's Bruckner), nor do I find the audience at all intrusive, so perhaps the sound was wanting on that one too... the Berlin Classics issue I listened to offered much pleasure and few distractions. I really want to go back to it soon.

But I'll have a good look for the single-issue Rogner recordings on BC.... so thanks again. (Just found most of these available on Qobuz HiFi, so...).

[Cockney Sparrow]

The Brilliant Classics set can be found on Naxos Music Library (Catalogue number search finds it - BC94686 ). It seems to be the very same set, but attributes them all to Rogner. Of course, not Hi-Res, but at least good enough for try before buy if tempted by the thought.

[Karafan]

Funny, it appealed to me straight away. Perhaps one reason being that I was holed up abroad about 28 years ago, before the internet, iPods mobile phones etc and the only western comfort I found was a cassette shop that had B2 in stock, and not much else! So it was my comfort blanket for about 6 weeks

out of interest Beef, do you recall who was playing/conducting on your comforting B2 cassette?

[Alison]

out of interest Beef, do you recall who was playing/conducting on your comforting B2 cassette?

Yeah, good question Karafan. Hurry up Beefy!

[Beef Oven!]

out of interest Beef, do you recall who was playing/conducting on your comforting B2 cassette?

I was hoping I wouldn’t get asked that. Sadly I can’t remember. I guess it was about 1993 and the cassette was an old release, even then. Hungarians, Czechoslovakians, Bulgarians? Something like that. Not a big-name orchestra or conductor.

Sorry guys.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was hoping I wouldn’t get asked that. Sadly I can’t remember. I guess it was about 1993 and the cassette was an old release, even then. Hungarians, Czechoslovakians, Bulgarians? Something like that. Not a big-name orchestra or conductor.

Sorry guys.

This one used to be on cassette in the early '90s:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-2-Bruckner/dp/B00008FKYE

[Beef Oven!]

This one used to be on cassette in the early '90s:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-2-.../dp/B00008FKYE

Very interesting. That could well be it - different cover, though.

[jayne lee wilson]

This one used to be on cassette in the early '90s:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-2-.../dp/B00008FKYE

Murky waters....

https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Pilz+CD+160+159+(mono)Symphony+No.+2+in+C+Minor/notestest.htm

This arrived recently, but Hans Knappertsbusch is still getting in the way...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N5FFDIN/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

1872 Carragan anyway, unlike YNS...