Originally posted by Petrushka
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Celi? -
Never heard it, I'm afraid, but I've duly noted it for future purchase. Going through a big Bruckner phase at the moment. Sometimes wonder if he has eclipsed Mahler in people's affections generally. Perhaps Bruckner's time certainly has come and in a major way. My very first Bruckner was Furtwangler's 1944 recording of the 8th purchased in 1974 and he has always been there for me but just lately I seem to be listening to little else.Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post"The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard HaitinkComment
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Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
You won’t regret it, I’m sure. I would recommend the Celibidache Edition 12 CD MPO box set of symphonies 3-9, Te Deum & Mass #3 - to use a cliche, no Bruckner fan should be without it!
I think quite a few of us are!Going through a big Bruckner phase at the moment.
I sometimes wonder that too. But checking through the R3 playlists, Proms, concert-life in general, it would seem that Mahler’s poll & pole position is quite safe.Sometimes wonder if he has eclipsed Mahler in people's affections generally. Perhaps Bruckner's time certainly has come and in a major way.
People like us are lucky, we can switch between the two on a whim (or a BaL!) and enjoy the best of all possible worlds. I do often wonder who I prefer. When I’m going through a Mahler obsession-episode, It’s clear to me that Bruckner is a galaxy and Mahler the universe. Then when I’m in Bruckner-mode, I cannot even think of Mahler.
I’m sure I could have once remembered my very first Bruckner experience or CD, but I can’t anymore. Probably hearing HvK on DG.My very first Bruckner was Furtwangler's 1944 recording of the 8th purchased in 1974 and he has always been there for me but just lately I seem to be listening to little else.
Are you slipping? You merely say '1974'. No reference to the day, month or whether it was in your lunch break, or on the way home! I hope you haven’t lost the receipt!
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Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
Are you slipping? You merely say '1974'. No reference to the day, month or whether it was in your lunch break, or on the way home! I hope you haven’t lost the receipt! I actually sent off for it by post following an advert in Gramophone, October 1974. I could find the exact date if I want to but would need a search.
"The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard HaitinkComment
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Interesting how soon this discussion moved away from No.2 isn't it? Maybe it's Bruckner's maiden between two gods....
More from me on that soon, but as for the 6th, do try Ivor Bolton live with the Mozarteum if you like a swifter, lighter view though with no lack of weight in tuttis - and (SO close to my present heart) expressive tempo variabile.
Simpson maintained that the finale - doch nicht zu schnell - should not begin so fast that the conductor need slow down markedly for the gesangsperiode (need a free translation of that) losing the overall momentum. Well, Bolton seems to fly in the face of it, but with such naturalness in tempo choices and variations that Simpson might have respected it. How wonderful to hear that lyrical second group blossoming à la Knappertsbusch, all the time in the world to grow and to flower, then - diving back into the drama, singing out effortlessly again when the song comes back in the development. (and stop press...https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1. - spot-on editional selection, Ivor!)
Locus Classicus for this approach to the 6th (as for, even more so, the 2nd, and much else) has to be Volkmar Andreae, with those irreplaceable 1953 Vienna Symphony Strings singing on even more sweetly, then bitingly fast as the music gathers pace. There's a world of difference between this in-the-blood expressive variation of phrase and tempo in lyrical sections and the Monumentalised/Romanticised contrasts in Celi's Munich recording.
So how marvellous to find Venzago, in Bern, doing just that Viennese, easy-as-breathing, singing-and-dancing thing - he's really wonderful at this point in the finale, with a lovely feel for the fluidity of the phrase; and certainly puts Norrington to shame - whose 6th has many merits, but his brusque, almost unvarying tempo from the allegro through the gesang is not one of them. Rhythmically flat, dull and inexpressive.
Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 15-01-17, 05:26.Comment
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Methinks I was the instigator with the change of direction, JLW!Don’t cry for me
I go where music was born
J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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The Venzago 6 come with the 3. While the 3 is excellent, I was disappointed with the performance of 6. But I’ve only played it through once. I will return to it.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostComment
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Has anyone heard/bought the Dausgaard Swedish Chamber Orchestra Bruckner 2?Comment
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Recently said this about it on the Dausgaard Bruckner 9 thread....Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
"I had very mixed feelings about his Swedish CO 1877 Bruckner 2 - BIS, 24/44.1, clean, clipped and vibrato free, but taken at quite a moderate pace and as RC said, lacking much warmth or passion. Very straight... (still very involved here with YNS and Andreae in 2 and 6)".
Here's your free content....
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/b...ymphony-no-2-2
...I find it hard to agree with RC about that 1st movement, unless it be the 1877, preferably Carragan, and played at Andreae's or Venzago's pace! I see Bruckner 2 as at least two distinct symphonies, or symphonic experiences, really....
Trying Dausgaard briefly the other night, I didn't feel I would revise my view significantly..... YNS' new one also found me a shade....impatient with his very patience, ... but ultimately rewarded. More soon I hope....
(Just ordered the SHM-CD of the Karajan, more in hope than.... (SOR of course!).Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 19-01-17, 01:32.Comment
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Thank you Jayne. I was curious. I am a subscriber to Gramophone’s digital club with archives/reviews archive/magazine, but I didn’t think to check.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
. And taking your views into account, I’ll hang fire for now.
Which HvK SHM-CD? #2? What’s SOR? (it’s late and my brain is slow!!)
Currently listening to my CD of Harnoncourt’s ‘Workshop’ on 4th movement of Bruckner 9. Very revealing and I would recommend this 2 disc set. It doesn’t have a complete, completed performance of the 4th movement, but it’s an excellent verbal and orchestral essay.
I’ve been playing the 4th movement of #9 as a stand alone over some days now, as an attempt to move on from my 3-movement stoicism. It’s working! I love Wildner’s version on Naxos (always did), preferring it to Rattle’s. The only other version I had until 5 minutes ago is Peter Jan Marthe's. But ....
.... I’ve had me cheque book out tonight in honour of (more) Bruckner and as I type, I’m downloading from Qobuz Gerd Schaller’s 4, 7 & 9 (with Finale completed by W. Carragan, rev. 2010).
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The Bruckner discussion on this forum is getting significant. But it’s spread over several different threads (including some good Bruckner commentary on the ‘Refusing Mahler 10’ thread). I’m not sure that amalgamating them would necessarily help, though. Any thoughts, anyone?
.Last edited by Beef Oven!; 19-01-17, 02:27.Comment
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Sounds a good idea, if they don't make this threads ever more complicated. Or a separate dedicated Bruckner thread, perhaps?Don’t cry for me
I go where music was born
J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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Countless times I’ve wanted to go to a particular post that I remember being spot-on, and it’s been impossible to find. And not just Bruckner, of course.Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
One very good example is ahinton’s perfect, expert explanation of the rationale for the order of the middle movements of Mahler 6 - buggered if I can find it!Comment
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You're too kind! It's in the thread devoted to the topic at http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...=scherzo+third which ran to no less than 316 posts in the first couple of months of 2012. I suspect that you may be referring to my posts #12, #52, #177 & #220 in that thread although I did contribute more. Never mind me; there's some really good stuff there from others, especially JLW and fhg!Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
Hope that helps!Comment
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Indeed, it helps - very grateful for citing this for me.Originally posted by ahinton View Post
Yes, I’m kind, pleasant, fast and bulbous and tapered, too*
You are right, I remember ferney had much erudition to add. And if Jayne contributed, I’m sure it was on the same level. I shall check it out this evening.
*Captain Beefheart Troutmask Replica reference that might not be familiar to you
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That'll keep you occupied for a while! A fine malt to accompany your trawl might not come amiss! And it doesn't really matter whether or not you read the posts in it in the order in which they appeared! And no, indeed I was not familiar with that reference from the lesser Beef!Originally posted by Beef Oven! View PostIndeed, it helps - very grateful for citing this for me.
Yes, I’m kind, pleasant, fast and bulbous and tapered, too*
You are right, I remember ferney had much erudition to add. And if Jayne contributed, I’m sure it was on the same level. I shall check it out this evening.
Without wishing to regurgitate anything from that thread now, one abiding factor that concerned and continues to concern me is that Mahler did see fit to make this immense alteration once and, even though there remains no evidence that he ever did so twice by reverting to first thoughts about that order of movements, it is not entirely impossible that he might have done so had he lived longer and conducted it more often - there is simply no knowing.Comment
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