Bruckner Symphony no. 2

[Beef Oven!]

[Petrushka]

As many will know, for some reason I've had a lot of trouble over the years in getting to grips with the Bruckner 2 when all the others (including Symphony 0) posed no problems whatever.

However, last Sunday I played Jochum's Bavarian RSO recording and really liked it so the struggle is over, I think. Strange how this symphony has eluded me for so long.

[Beef Oven!]

Karajan BPO was my first love in this symphony. I collected further performance and then, I don’t remember exactly when, the Tintner came along and was a real game-changer. I wasn’t aware of any other major performances until about 2002, when I bought the Giulini. Later on, I discovered the Horst Stein on Eloquence which I like very much. Recently I acquired the Venzago.

Currently listening to VPO, C M Giulini - Testament. It’s a top-notch performance.

[Beef Oven!]

As many will know, for some reason I've had a lot of trouble over the years in getting to grips with the Bruckner 2 when all the others (including Symphony 0) posed no problems whatever.

However, last Sunday I played Jochum's Bavarian RSO recording and really liked it so the struggle is over, I think. Strange how this symphony has eluded me for so long.

Funny, it appealed to me straight away. Perhaps one reason being that I was holed up abroad about 28 years ago, before the internet, iPods mobile phones etc and the only western comfort I found was a cassette shop that had B2 in stock, and not much else! So it was my comfort blanket for about 6 weeks.

I don’t know the Jochum Bavarian.

I really really struggle with 0 and 00!!!

(and sometimes 1 defeats me)

[Once Was 4]

Karajan BPO was my first love in this symphony. I collected further performance and then, I don’t remember exactly when, the Tintner came along and was a real game-changer. I wasn’t aware of any other major performances until about 2002, when I bought the Giulini. Later on, I discovered the Horst Stein on Eloquence which I like very much. Recently I acquired the Venzago.

Currently listening to VPO, C M Giulini - Testament. It’s a top-notch performance.

The Bruckner 3 thread was a stimulating and informative debate to which I was tempted to add the following but dare not for fear of lowering its tone. Now I have an excuse:

Years ago, I was loaned a CD of Bruckner 2 on the strict condition that I did not give it back. Its owner called it an 'execrable' performance. It is on the ZYX Classic label and the performers are billed as the Philharmonia Slavonica conducted by Henry Adolph. To me it sounds like a tolerably good orchestra sight reading - possibly a radio orchestra in a first rehearsal which somebody has recorded as a test. Judging by the horn playing it could well be an Eastern European orchestra. Does anybody know more?

[visualnickmos]

I quite like Solti's recording of Bruckner 2 with the CSO. Took me a while to 'get' it, admittedly, but I find with Bruckner, it's like looking at an optical illusion - you keep looking - nothing happens, then eventually you look yet again, and the picture appears - and then you can't 'not' see it!

[Beef Oven!]

The Bruckner 3 thread was a stimulating and informative debate to which I was tempted to add the following but dare not for fear of lowering its tone. Now I have an excuse:

Years ago, I was loaned a CD of Bruckner 2 on the strict condition that I did not give it back. Its owner called it an 'execrable' performance. It is on the ZYX Classic label and the performers are billed as the Philharmonia Slavonica conducted by Henry Adolph. To me it sounds like a tolerably good orchestra sight reading - possibly a radio orchestra in a first rehearsal which somebody has recorded as a test. Judging by the horn playing it could well be an Eastern European orchestra. Does anybody know more?

It rather sounds like that cassette I bought! (honestly). Any port in a storm.

[Beef Oven!]

I quite like Solti's recording of Bruckner 2 with the CSO. Took me a while to 'get' it, admittedly, but I find with Bruckner, it's like looking at an optical illusion - you keep looking - nothing happens, then eventually you look yet again, and the picture appears - and then you can't 'not' see it!

That really is a most excellent analogy (well, it works for me )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Years ago, I was loaned a CD of Bruckner 2 on the strict condition that I did not give it back. Its owner called it an 'execrable' performance. It is on the ZYX Classic label and the performers are billed as the Philharmonia Slavonica conducted by Henry Adolph. To me it sounds like a tolerably good orchestra sight reading - possibly a radio orchestra in a first rehearsal which somebody has recorded as a test. Judging by the horn playing it could well be an Eastern European orchestra. Does anybody know more?

This any use?

https://www.discogs.com/artist/847478-Philharmonia-Slavonica

[Beef Oven!]

Had a look on abruckner.com and edition/version evangelists will be pleased to know that there are up to 10 entries. But I’m sure this time around, we’ll avoid one of our celebrated forum bun-fights!

[Petrushka]

Despite not 'getting' the symphony for so long I do have a lengthy list of recordings of the work! Jochum x2, Solti, Giulini, Karajan, Stein, Blomstedt, Wand. Not, though, Haitink, who has never returned to Bruckner 1 or 2 following his first recordings. Wonder if his recording is available somewhere, even as a download.

[jayne lee wilson]

OK, pay attention at the back! Let's get this outta the way early on...

Marques' summary:

"Symphony no. 2 in C minor
1872 version (First concept version), composed between October 11, 1871 and September 11, 1872. Critical edition by William Carragan for the Bruckner Society.


1873 version (First performance version) prepared for the first performance on October 26, 1873 by the Vienna P.O. under Bruckner. There were many changes in this revision. The order of the inner movements was reversed; in the Adagio, the horn solo at the end was changed to a clarinet solo and a violin solo was added. The repeats were canceled in the Scherzo and Trio, a passage in the Finale was completely rewritten, and a fourth trombone was added in the final few bars to reinforce the bass line. Critical version by William Carragan (still unpublished).


1876 version, prepared in 1875-76 and performed on February 20, 1876 also by the Vienna P.O under Bruckner. There weren't many changes this time. In the Finale, some material from the 1872 version, cut in 1873, was restored, the new passage added in 1873 was shortened, the fourth trombone was removed from the final bars and, instead, unison strings were introduced at the very end.


1877 version, presents more significant changes. Compared to the 1872 version, there is a cut in the first movement (although this cut might have been made in 1876). There was also a cut made in the Adagio, and the violin solo was removed. The Scherzo was modified slightly, with some bars being repeated at the end of the Scherzo and its reprise. In the Finale, the new passage (which was shortened in 1876) was removed and replaced with yet another passage. The final few bars were changed again, mainly in the trumpet parts. And the last few bars of the first movement were stretched out a bit.


Neither Haas (1938) nor Nowak (1965) editions represent pure versions. Contrary to what is still commonly said, Haas doesn't present the original version, but is based primarily on the 1877 version, with some elements of the 1872 version. The Nowak edition is actually a close approximation to the 1877 version as long as the cuts are observed and an error in the trumpet parts at the end of the first movement is fixed. The new definitive edition by William Carragan (1997) removes from the Nowak edition the anomalies that had remained from Haas.


1892 version, with slight revisions made by Bruckner between 1891 and 1892. The final bars were stretched out a little bit further, and new trombone parts, similar to the 1877 trumpet parts, were introduced near the very end of the Finale. This last version is used in the First Edition, published in 1892 by Doblinger under the supervision of Hynais and later republished many times. The Doblinger edition was considered inauthentic for a long time, but now it is recognized as being a more accurate realization of the 1877 version than either the Haas or Nowak editions. "


***

....The 1872 Carragan is of course available now in excellent recordings e.g.. Tintner, Young and Blomstedt (which latter is definitely ***!! There is only one Blomstedt this time unlike the 1873 3rd!).
1877/Carragan is the most authentic revised version, with far fewer recordings: Barenboim's last two, Janowski (but both add the 1892 ending ); Paavo Jarvi (but he prefers the horn solo to the clarinet in the adagio ) and best of all Venzago, who is apparently guilty of merely one changed note (see Berky). So we'll forgive him that one given the sheer beauty and originality of his recording.
(Funny how spellcheck likes to say "Vintner" isn't it? Did someone put a government health webcam in here?)

My own comments from last September -

"The most frequently-discussed editorial interventions are those of Robert Haas of course, with regard to No.2 and No.8. He restored his own selection of excised short passages back to later revisions, in the case of No.2 bringing back quotes and thematic references in the original 1st and last movements from 1872 into the 1877 revision, restoring the horn solo at the adagio’s end (revisions have clarinet); and restoring the F Minor Mass quotation just before the finale coda - musically very significant, as this F Minor Mass theme is given a beautiful, extended slow treatment just before the development (Venzago is extraordinary here - beyond beauty, beyond praise!). But - still leaving the scherzo placed 3rd.
I think the 2nd does make better musical sense with the cuts restored (call that a clear editorial improvement if you like!), BUT - as both 1872 (with all the cyclical quotes in the outer movements) and 1877 are authenticated versions of Bruckner's own, it surely is best to listen to them separately, as two excellent versions of the same work, rather than what is usually referred to as "1872/1877 Mixed Edition, Ed. Haas". Any devoted Brucknerian will want to hear them all of course! Current personal preference? 1872 Carraghan, with Scherzo coming 2nd (vide Blomstedt, Young, Tintner etc)."

But given the difficulty in hearing the pure 1877 Bruckner autograph (let alone 1892), and frequency of conductorial intervention (however small) you could simplify the view by seeing just two versions: 1872 Carragan, authentic, much longer, all cyclical and Mass quotes, scherzo 2nd; 1877 revision, Carragan authentic; but variously editor- or conductor- interpolated with restorations from 1872.
***

Bruckner 2 has some unusual structural and other stylistic features, e.g.. the 1st movement exposition on two thematic groups rather than the usual three; but that's a tale for another night...

[P. G. Tipps]

Despite not 'getting' the symphony for so long I do have a lengthy list of recordings of the work! Jochum x2, Solti, Giulini, Karajan, Stein, Blomstedt, Wand. Not, though, Haitink, who has never returned to Bruckner 1 or 2 following his first recordings. Wonder if his recording is available somewhere, even as a download.

You can download the Haitink recordings from YouTube if you possess the right tools ... in my case using the Firefox Browser plus installing one of the numerous free 'video downloaders' in its 'Add On' section. If you want to get rid of the accompanying graphics you can then import it into the excellent audio program, Audacity (also free), and export/convert it to one of the main audio formats available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4dcr_i386c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKd4b38rxs

I see Haitink's No 1 is a mixture of versions of the 'Linz version'!

[Nick Armstrong]

But I’m sure this time around, we’ll avoid one of our celebrated forum bun-fights!

Amazing stuff from jayne.... !

[Beef Oven!]

Jayne, thank you so much for setting out the edition/version position regarding B2. Really useful and definitely appreciated

OK, pay attention at the back! Let's get this outta the way early on...

Marques' summary:

"Symphony no. 2 in C minor
1872 version (First concept version), composed between October 11, 1871 and September 11, 1872. Critical edition by William Carragan for the Bruckner Society.


1873 version (First performance version) prepared for the first performance on October 26, 1873 by the Vienna P.O. under Bruckner. There were many changes in this revision. The order of the inner movements was reversed; in the Adagio, the horn solo at the end was changed to a clarinet solo and a violin solo was added. The repeats were canceled in the Scherzo and Trio, a passage in the Finale was completely rewritten, and a fourth trombone was added in the final few bars to reinforce the bass line. Critical version by William Carragan (still unpublished).


1876 version, prepared in 1875-76 and performed on February 20, 1876 also by the Vienna P.O under Bruckner. There weren't many changes this time. In the Finale, some material from the 1872 version, cut in 1873, was restored, the new passage added in 1873 was shortened, the fourth trombone was removed from the final bars and, instead, unison strings were introduced at the very end.


1877 version, presents more significant changes. Compared to the 1872 version, there is a cut in the first movement (although this cut might have been made in 1876). There was also a cut made in the Adagio, and the violin solo was removed. The Scherzo was modified slightly, with some bars being repeated at the end of the Scherzo and its reprise. In the Finale, the new passage (which was shortened in 1876) was removed and replaced with yet another passage. The final few bars were changed again, mainly in the trumpet parts. And the last few bars of the first movement were stretched out a bit.


Neither Haas (1938) nor Nowak (1965) editions represent pure versions. Contrary to what is still commonly said, Haas doesn't present the original version, but is based primarily on the 1877 version, with some elements of the 1872 version. The Nowak edition is actually a close approximation to the 1877 version as long as the cuts are observed and an error in the trumpet parts at the end of the first movement is fixed. The new definitive edition by William Carragan (1997) removes from the Nowak edition the anomalies that had remained from Haas.


1892 version, with slight revisions made by Bruckner between 1891 and 1892. The final bars were stretched out a little bit further, and new trombone parts, similar to the 1877 trumpet parts, were introduced near the very end of the Finale. This last version is used in the First Edition, published in 1892 by Doblinger under the supervision of Hynais and later republished many times. The Doblinger edition was considered inauthentic for a long time, but now it is recognized as being a more accurate realization of the 1877 version than either the Haas or Nowak editions. "


***

....The 1872 Carragan is of course available now in excellent recordings e.g.. Tintner, Young and Blomstedt (which latter is definitely ***!! There is only one Blomstedt this time unlike the 1873 3rd!).
1877/Carragan is the most authentic revised version, with far fewer recordings: Barenboim's last two, Janowski (but both add the 1892 ending ); Paavo Jarvi (but he prefers the horn solo to the clarinet in the adagio ) and best of all Venzago, who is apparently guilty of merely one changed note (see Berky). So we'll forgive him that one given the sheer beauty and originality of his recording.
(Funny how spellcheck likes to say "Vintner" isn't it? Did someone put a government health webcam in here?)

My own comments from last September -

"The most frequently-discussed editorial interventions are those of Robert Haas of course, with regard to No.2 and No.8. He restored his own selection of excised short passages back to later revisions, in the case of No.2 bringing back quotes and thematic references in the original 1st and last movements from 1872 into the 1877 revision, restoring the horn solo at the adagio’s end (revisions have clarinet); and restoring the F Minor Mass quotation just before the finale coda - musically very significant, as this F Minor Mass theme is given a beautiful, extended slow treatment just before the development (Venzago is extraordinary here - beyond beauty, beyond praise!). But - still leaving the scherzo placed 3rd.
I think the 2nd does make better musical sense with the cuts restored (call that a clear editorial improvement if you like!), BUT - as both 1872 (with all the cyclical quotes in the outer movements) and 1877 are authenticated versions of Bruckner's own, it surely is best to listen to them separately, as two excellent versions of the same work, rather than what is usually referred to as "1872/1877 Mixed Edition, Ed. Haas". Any devoted Brucknerian will want to hear them all of course! Current personal preference? 1872 Carraghan, with Scherzo coming 2nd (vide Blomstedt, Young, Tintner etc)."

But given the difficulty in hearing the pure 1877 Bruckner autograph (let alone 1892), and frequency of conductorial intervention (however small) you could simplify the view by seeing just two versions: 1872 Carragan, authentic, much longer, all cyclical and Mass quotes, scherzo 2nd; 1877 revision, Carragan authentic; but variously editor- or conductor- interpolated with restorations from 1872.
***

Bruckner 2 has some unusual structural and other stylistic features, e.g.. the 1st movement exposition on two thematic groups rather than the usual three; but that's a tale for another night...