Bruckner symphony versions by David Griegel

[jayne lee wilson]

Given recent discussions of Brucknerian editions, it seems a good idea to give this link to an excellent summarising guide to them by David Griegel, updated as recently as 2009.
(You can also link to it via abruckner.com's individual symphony discographies.)

http://www.bruckner.webs.com/versions.html

I was soon intrigued by the comment on the 2nd Symphony, that the 1877 Nowak edition is based on Haas 1877, so "retains the passages from 1872 added by Haas" in his edition, which in effect combines 1877 with 1872 - a similar situation to the Haas 1890 8th. I'd thought that performances and recordings of the 1877 Nowak edition always make the cuts, which Bruckner himself made for the 1877 version following suggestions by his friend Johann Herbeck. So - spot-check required! The VSO/Giulini, described as 1877 Nowak, makes the cuts to the 1st and 4th movement codas, as does Jochum in his Dresden State version, listed simply as "1877 version" (though admittedly I was almost too shocked at his sheer speed to concentrate...). But Dausgaard with the Swedish CO on BIS, also described as Nowak 1877, restores those passages. All these are under the same Nowak heading at abruckner.com
(Gunter Wand in Cologne restores the passages, but this version is described as "Unabridged Final Version 1877 ed.Haas". Venzago - simply "1877" in the booklet - makes the cuts and explains why, but is listed by Berky under "ed. Carragan - removes remaining Haas anomalies").

It's fascinating to discover that Nowak maintained the Haas emendations (or "anomalies") in an edition published in 1965, yet not every conductor plays them. Does the Nowak edition indicate the restorations, offering a choice?

Simplest, then, to stick to Carraghan - especially 1872, longest and loveliest Bruckner Second of all...

[P. G. Tipps]

I am almost too terrified to click on JLW's link ...

Before I settle down to study the article later this evening (fortified by a very large Bell's) her own comments regarding Carragan's version of No 2 are interesting.

As stated before I've tended to avoid anything by WC after being wholly unconvinced by his 'completion' of the Ninth many years ago. I must now set aside this instinctive and unfair bias.

The 2nd is a truly glorious work ... the slow movement is one of the composer's loveliest ... and I'm bewildered that we do not hear the symphony more often in live concert.

But maybe we should just accept that Mystery is an intrinsic part of the great Bruckner experience, revisions/editions/unfathomable neglect et al.

[cloughie]

When you look at the many editions of Bruckner symphonies was he the original 'I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure'.

[Beef Oven!]

Thanks for this Jayne, it will help me to get my head around the whole business of the editions.

Regarding your comments on #2, I've been eying up Venzago's 2 following RB's positive comments about his symphonies, particularly the early ones, but I notice he uses Haas.

[BBMmk2]

Thank you as ever, JLW. I have bookmarked the site, for further time on it!

[jayne lee wilson]

Thanks for this Jayne, it will help me to get my head around the whole business of the editions.

Regarding your comments on #2, I've been eying up Venzago's 2 following RB's positive comments about his symphonies, particularly the early ones, but I notice he uses Haas.

No - it's the Carragan 1877 - see above! And he sticks to Nowak for 1 and 3. But, given that Venzago's is such a terrific 2nd (playing excerpts last night it really stood out), you have two of the best authenticated Bruckner editions of the 2nd (i.e. closest to what Bruckner wanted at the time, influenced by friends or not) - Carragan 1872 and 1877 - available in wonderful recordings. Janowski also uses Carragan 1877 (though I recall this didn't review all that well). As does, surprisingly, Barenboim in Berlin - BUT he adds a passage to the finale coda from 1892! Goodness.
Bookmark the Berky discography http://www.abruckner.com/discography/ and, if you have doubts about a given recording, click on its serial number (cpo 777-735 etc) and see Berky's specific notes to it - you'll find a few surprises in there!

It can seem daunting, I know, but if anyone who'd stuck to the later revisions and most familiar older recordings (usually Haas or Nowak) asked what to do, I'd say - go for the 1872 Carragan 2nd and the 1873 Nowak 3rd. They are well-authenticated, carefully researched editions based on Bruckner's earliest MSS, and there are several fine recordings of both now. But most of all - they offer very rewarding musical experiences.

(I'm just getting to grips with Korstvedt's frequent mention of "first published editions", e.g. the 1888 4th (I downloaded Vanska http://www.eclassical.com/conductors...-romantic.html last night, now breathless with anticipation etc.) - but that's another story... )

[Beef Oven!]

I'm finding this very confusing!

Qobuz lists it as 'ALBUM : 1 disk - 4 tracks Total length : 00:56:27 Symphony No. 2 in C minor, WAB 102 (1877 version, ed. R. Haas) (Anton Bruckner).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm finding this very confusing!

Qobuz lists it as 'ALBUM : 1 disk - 4 tracks Total length : 00:56:27 Symphony No. 2 in C minor, WAB 102 (1877 version, ed. R. Haas) (Anton Bruckner).

Both Musicweb International and AllMusic state that this recording uses the Carragan edition of the second version of this work:

Musicweb:
Venzago has opted for the 1877 version.
Bruckner composed his Symphony No. 2 between October 1871 and September 1872. He made various revisions before the first performance, given on 26 October 1873, when he conducted the Vienna Philharmonic. Then he made other changes for a performance in 1876, and yet more in 1877 and 1892. William Carragan’s 2005 critical edition for the Bruckner Society attempts to come as close as possible to the original of 1872.

AllMusic:
Unlike some contemporary conductors who favor the original 1872 version of this symphony, Venzago performs the more familiar 1877 version, edited by William Carragan.

(PS: ArkivMusic also states "1877 version, edited W Carragan")

It's unlikely that Venzago would opt for Haas' edition of the Second, in which (like his edition of the Eighth, but not to so great an extent) the editor takes excepts from both versions to make a composite version of his own.

[jayne lee wilson]

Always trust Berky's magisterially dedicated, frequently updated, abruckner.com discography - I've never found a mistake yet through my listening, nor would ever expect to. Not worthy, not worthy! Etc.
Sign up for his monthly newsletters, why not...

Anyway. If you listen to the Venzago, you'll notice the cuts to the outer movement codas, the shortened horn solo in the adagio and loss of the bassoon cadenza after it (the one where Robert Simpson makes his comments about the poor horn player dying suddenly of exhaustion - I prefer to think of it as getting lost in the woods...) and the clarinet solo replacing the horn from 1872 in the lovely coda to that movement. Definitely Carragan 1877, not Haas or Nowak. Buy and - enjoy!

[Beef Oven!]

I was thinking of buying it and looked on Amazon and Qobuz. Amazon is silent and Qobuz, as you can see from my screen shot in post #7, says ed. R. Haas.

Obviously, if it's a toss up between you and Jayne versus Qobuz, I'm going to go with

[HighlandDougie]

Always trust Berky's magisterially dedicated, frequently updated, abruckner.com discography - I've never found a mistake yet through my listening, nor would ever expect to. ![/I]

While I'm not saying it's a mistake as it may be Berky's considered view of a bit of a bastard child among editions, his attribution of the 12/12/1963 EMI Schuricht/VPO recording to "1887/90 Haas, Mixed Versions", suggests that it's basically Haas when my ears tell me that, as it says on the sleeve notes of the LPs (reproduced in the EMI SACD booklet), it's basically Nowak 1890, with, as is said in the SACD notes by John Williamson, who edited the Cambridge Bruckner Companion, some Schurichtian borrowing of bits of Haas et al as the conductor presumably thought appropriate.

[Beef Oven!]

While I'm not saying it's a mistake as it may be Berky's considered view of a bit of a bastard child among editions, his attribution of the 12/12/1963 EMI Schuricht/VPO recording to "1887/90 Haas, Mixed Versions", suggests that it's basically Haas when my ears tell me that, as it says on the sleeve notes of the LPs (reproduced in the EMI SACD booklet), it's basically Nowak 1890, with, as is said in the SACD notes by John Williamson, who edited the Cambridge Bruckner Companion, some Schurichtian borrowing of bits of Haas et al as the conductor presumably thought appropriate.

I nearly stuck my head above the parapet on that one!

[jayne lee wilson]

While I'm not saying it's a mistake as it may be Berky's considered view of a bit of a bastard child among editions, his attribution of the 12/12/1963 EMI Schuricht/VPO recording to "1887/90 Haas, Mixed Versions", suggests that it's basically Haas when my ears tell me that, as it says on the sleeve notes of the LPs (reproduced in the EMI SACD booklet), it's basically Nowak 1890, with, as is said in the SACD notes by John Williamson, who edited the Cambridge Bruckner Companion, some Schurichtian borrowing of bits of Haas et al as the conductor presumably thought appropriate.

Checking the adagio of the Schuricht, sure enough - the passage Haas restored in the approach to the climax is omitted - i.e, as per Nowak. Tracking through the finale could be very tricky if Schuricht has made emendations of his own (IMG Great Conductors issue says "Haas with minor alterations"...), so I've written to John Berky about it and he said he'd "try to tackle this" in a few days time...

Having just received the OEHMS SACD of the Simone Young 1873 Nowak 3rd, I was reminded of how excellent the notes to these recordings are. Both here and in Young's recording of the 1872 Carragan 2nd, Michael Lewin provides two of the best essays I've ever read on the matter, giving a clear and detailed comparative guide for the listener to approach these versions with. For instance, I'd never have otherwise known that Bruckner removed "eight of the nine famously long grand pauses" from the 2nd Symphony's first movement in the revision (haven't been back to count them yet....)
Haven't heard this 3rd yet, but like most of Young's series it reviewed very well, and the 2nd is outstanding, one of my favourites. But truly, these discs are worth getting for the notes alone! The Qobuz downloads are cheaper, but - booklet provision is patchy, sadly...

[teamsaint]

Checking the adagio of the Schuricht, sure enough - the passage Haas restored in the approach to the climax is omitted - i.e, as per Nowak. Tracking through the finale could be very tricky if Schuricht has made emendations of his own (IMG Great Conductors issue says "Haas with minor alterations"...), so I've written to John Berky about it and he said he'd "try to tackle this" in a few days time...

Having just received the OEHMS SACD of the Simone Young 1873 Nowak 3rd, I was reminded of how excellent the notes to these recordings are. Both here and in Young's recording of the 1872 Carragan 2nd, Michael Lewin provides two of the best essays I've ever read on the matter, giving a clear and detailed comparative guide for the listener to approach these versions with. For instance, I'd never have otherwise known that Bruckner removed "eight of the nine famously long grand pauses" from the 2nd Symphony's first movement in the revision (haven't been back to count them yet....)
Haven't heard this 3rd yet, but like most of Young's series it reviewed very well, and the 2nd is outstanding, one of my favourites. But truly, these discs are worth getting for the notes alone! The Qobuz downloads are cheaper, but - booklet provision is patchy, sadly...

The CDS are available to hear in the Naxos Library. I doubt if the sound quality is near SACD standard.
The booklet provision is presumably the same as Qobuz. They are available for No6, for example, but not for 2 or 3.
Still, should keep somebody out of mischief over the bank holiday.

Edit: Although notes to no 3 available here

and no8 here

No 2 here

and 4 here

the rest either in the naxos library, or on the website with the other links.
the CDs are also available to hear on Spotty.

[jayne lee wilson]

Terrific find TS, thankyou. I'll take advantage of the notes to the 1874 4th myself as it's the Bruckner version I have most trouble with and didn't want to spend too much money on further aquisition. But, given the excellence of Lewin's piece on it - including comments on the Korstvedt 1888 4th I'm about to try, I guess I'll get the Qobuz download to match. That's quite a few days' listening mapped out, one or two movements at at time...
(Doesn't help to be sidetracked by Martinu either, but at least I can listen to those in one go...)