Bruckner - Symphony No. 8

[Beef Oven!]

I've just finished listening to Barbirolli's Bruckner 8. I played it last week and really enjoyed it. Tonight/morning, on the back of Giulini, Asahina and Goodall, I find it inelegant and a tad rushed. The scherzo that I thought energetic, brimming with vim last week seems just too bloody fast! The adagio however was excellent. Great sound on this BBC CD, I have to say. Celibidache must wait until tomorrow lunchtime. Going to listen to a little bit of Il Prete Rosso before some sleep!

[Petrushka]

BeefO, you've certainly got some stamina to listen to so many Bruckner 8's in such a short span of time. I find this difficult to do, invariably requiring days, if not weeks, before returning to such a gigantic work. I've heard a few recently, including the Rattle, but just need to step back and rest it for a while. There's a great danger of overexposure which does no one any favours. Mahler and Bruckner, more than most, need careful spacing in my listening given the huge emotional demands made. Having not heard the Goodall in 14 years (as far as I can recall) it felt like a new disc, one of the advantages of possessing a vast number of recordings of the same work.

[Beef Oven!]

BeefO, you've certainly got some stamina to listen to so many Bruckner 8's in such a short span of time. I find this difficult to do, invariably requiring days, if not weeks, before returning to such a gigantic work. I've heard a few recently, including the Rattle, but just need to step back and rest it for a while. There's a great danger of overexposure which does no one any favours. Mahler and Bruckner, more than most, need careful spacing in my listening given the huge emotional demands made. Having not heard the Goodall in 14 years (as far as I can recall) it felt like a new disc, one of the advantages of possessing a vast number of recordings of the same work.

I was pushing to a bit, but to be honest the coffee I made in the early hours was a silly mistake. I couldn't sleep until almost 6.00 am. without the coffee I could have only managed two performances.

Today, I planned to listen to Celibidache about now, but I'm not up for it. I'm going for a walk this afternoon so I'll listen to another performance on the go. But it will be HvK's VPO. For some reason I want to listen to that recording, not the Celi. Goes like that I suppose.

Also, over the last month, I've been using a new pair of earphones (RHA T-20) and to be honest the sound quality is staggering. So much detail and so much clarity. This has helped my listening and motivation thereof an awful lot. I'm even preferring listening with the Hi-Res Player and earphones to my main system!

[Bryn]

I see that Luisi has joined the ranks of those opting for the original 1887 version. Looks interesting, if a little pricey.

[Richard Barrett]

I see that Luisi has joined the ranks of those opting for the original 1887 version. Looks interesting, if a little pricey.

I don't really see why anyone would want to perform or listen to the 1887 version except for comparative purposes - it seems to me that the 1890 version (in either of its variants) is an improvement in every regard. Am I wrong to think this?

[Petrushka]

I don't really see why anyone would want to perform or listen to the 1887 version except for comparative purposes - it seems to me that the 1890 version (in either of its variants) is an improvement in every regard. Am I wrong to think this?

No, I'd entirely agree with this assessment. I did have the Dennis Russell Davies recording at one time but a single hearing was enough to convince me that I never wanted to hear this version again so I disposed of it.

[P. G. Tipps]

I don't really see why anyone would want to perform or listen to the 1887 version except for comparative purposes - it seems to me that the 1890 version (in either of its variants) is an improvement in every regard. Am I wrong to think this?

No, but you would also not be 'wrong' to think otherwise.

FWIW, I agree with you about the 8th. Levi did the composer and posterity a real favour here even if the conductor's initial bewilderment and rejection proved upsetting to both men at the time.

The various needless and extensive revisions of the 3rd and 4th symphonies are a quite different matter though, imv ...

[Beef Oven!]

I listened to Karajan's VPO Bruckner 8 earlier. It is interesting that I am normally convinced of how superior this performance/recording is too all others. This time, I suspect because I've listened to four excellent performances so soon before, that I realise that whilst in absolute terms it is an astounding rendition, it is not necessarily the be all and end all (I'm thinking that last night's listen of Giuilini was at least as good, for example). I'm very much in the mood for more Bruckner and I will be listening to Christian Thielemann and The Dresden Staatskapelle next.

[Petrushka]

I will be listening to Christian Thielemann and The Dresden Staatskapelle next.

This received a distinctly lukewarm reception from Richard Osborne in the Gramophone, if I remember correctly, and it's not one on my list. However, I did miss van Beinum/Concertgebouw. Be interested in what you think of the Thielemann.

[visualnickmos]

... and I will be listening to Christian Thielemann and The Dresden Staatskapelle next.

Any good, this Thielemann fellow? Listened to his Also sprach... - very tepid, not to my liking at all, more seasoning, lacking flavour.

[Beef Oven!]

This received a distinctly lukewarm reception from Richard Osborne in the Gramophone, if I remember correctly, and it's not one on my list. However, I did miss van Beinum/Concertgebouw. Be interested in what you think of the Thielemann.

Ok, I've listened to it through.

First of all, I've had this CD for about 4/5 years and always liked it from day one. But within the context of listening to a lot of B8s over a short period of time, I will take a relative view.

I have read Richard Osborne's review in Gramophone and I perfectly understand his criticisms (for those who haven't read the review, he doesn't rate it). However, I think that it's a question of perspective - this was a live concert, Thielemann taking the gig in place of an indisposed Fabio Luisi with an 'unfamiliar' orchestra (I'm not making excuses, just giving the context). If I'd been at that concert, I think I would have been thrilled with the performance and would have been buzzing for days. It must have been one helluva concert!

If you expect a definitive performance, or Thielemans's Bruckner 8 manifesto, then it falls short.

What did I hear? Well the first movement was the weakest. No sense of that great, inevitable line that HvK, Wand et al are able to deliver. Quite episodic with little dramatic interludes interrupting (for me anyway) the flow. The second movement was neither fish nor foul in terms of tempo, but there was a strong sense of rhythm (yes rhythm!) in the music. The adagio was an improvement, but still quite episodic. Where I agree with Osborne is in the finale. That was definitely where the whole thing began to take off! And the coda was, in my view, magnificent. Now when you end a gig like that, no-one remembers the first three movements and they all go home thrilled (well, I exaggerate, but you get my point).

Now, there's a second point on which I agree with Osborne. He suggests, almost disparagingly, that this approach (episodic, mini-dramas along the way, fluctuations in tempo (my description)) might be the beginning of a new approach to performing Bruckner 8, but only time will tell. Well yes, it just might be!

There are so many fantastic recordings of Bruckner 8 that no-one will suffer a detriment if they give this recording a miss. But if one has the time, a small amount of money and some basic curiosity, then I don't think one will be going too far wrong if they add this to their collection.

I aim to listen to Gunter Wand BPO RCA Victor later tonight, if I don't fall asleep on account of being up all last night listening to music!

[Petrushka]

Thanks for the Theilemann review, Beefy. I would hazard a guess that it might all come out a bit different if he recorded it again particularly as he will now know the orchestra much better. I'm looking forward to his Proms appearance with them.

[Beef Oven!]

Thanks for the Theilemann review, Beefy. I would hazard a guess that it might all come out a bit different if he recorded it again particularly as he will now know the orchestra much better. I'm looking forward to his Proms appearance with them.

[kea]

... or that structure has more to do with subjectivity and turning points?

I have to say I've always thought of structure as being more about the bricks than the mortar. One of those unquestioned assumption things. You're probably right.

I don't really see why anyone would want to perform or listen to the 1887 version except for comparative purposes - it seems to me that the 1890 version (in either of its variants) is an improvement in every regard. Am I wrong to think this?

I mean... I enjoyed the 1887 version (performers were Young/Hamburg if it matters) and will probably revisit it, if less often than the later one. It's basically a different piece, though, just made with the same bricks. I imagine if one's very used to the 1890 version they'll be constantly missing some of the mortar. (I've only known the piece for about a year and a half, so)

I don't actually know the Haas 1890 edition. Though it's "wrong", and the changes are much smaller, I guess I'd be curious about that as well. Recommendations?

[Beef Oven!]

Name: Symphony No. 8 in C Minor
Version: 1887/90 Mixed Versions. Ed. Robert Haas [1939]
Orchestra: Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Conductor: Carl Schuricht
Recorded On: 12/12/1963
Published Date: 1939
Recording: EMI CD Box set, complete recordings

Total Time: 71:16

First Movement: 15:32
Second Movement: 14:00
Third Movement: 21:44
Fourth Movement: 19:43