Bruckner - Symphony No. 8

[Beef Oven!]

Looking at the replies to this thread I, as a listener, not a musician, comment as follows:-

I enjoy following miniature scores and have 288 in my collection. For years I wanted to aquire a copy of Bruckner 8th in the Haas edition and only last year whilst in Budapest did I find one in a bookshop, but it's an amalgam of Nowak with Haas as an addendum. No problem there! but when seeing the bits of Haas that some conductors leave out when using Nowak, I cannot understand what all the fuss is about. It's not as if the Haas bits are adding half an hour to a performance.

I used to visit Japan on business and met and became friends with a Japanese man who not only enjoyed Transport Archaeology but also classical music, not least Bruckner. Asahina was his idol when it came to conducting Bruckner and he told me many stories about seeing him live in Osaka. He very kindly gave me cassettes of Asahina conducting the 4th and 9th in concert, which I have to this minute and they are very good performances dating from 1993 and 1991 respectively.

I saw Barbirolli conduct Bruckner 8th 3 times in the short time I was able to see him in concert, the last of which was at the RFH (preceded by the wonderful performance of In the South), and it was the prospect of hearing the 8th live that first took me to Manchester from the Birmingham area. The CBSO in those days only did the 4th and 6th as I recall. I had got to know the 8th from a library LP of Karajan on Columbia, with I recall, a lumbering account of the scherzo. The visit to the RFH was a first for me and my pal got tickets for the choir stalls so I can remember to this day the sight of JB looking at the brass section with those penetrating eyes quivering left hand!

A wonderful anecdote, all 'round.

I too, cannot see what all the fuss is about, regarding Haas etc.

It's strange how Asahina seems not to have been mentioned on these boards until very recently. I hadn't heard any of his recordings before a few days ago!

I'm sure I'm not the only one envying your watching Glorious John straight-on from the choir stalls!

[Bryn]

... It's strange how Asahina seems not to have been mentioned on these boards until very recently. I hadn't heard any of his recordings before a few days ago! ...

http://www.for3.org/forums/search.php?searchid=3719363

[jayne lee wilson]

A wonderful anecdote, all 'round.

I too, cannot see what all the fuss is about, regarding Haas etc.

It's strange how Asahina seems not to have been mentioned on these boards until very recently. I hadn't heard any of his recordings before a few days ago!

I'm sure I'm not the only one envying your watching Glorious John straight-on from the choir stalls!

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?1722-Bruckner-The-People-s-Choice/page4&highlight=asahina

No worries Beef, I wouldn't have listened again to that lovely JVC Tokyo Metropolitan 2nd if you hadn't mentioned him, so - thanks...

Off your 8th topic, but the 2nd is a good place to hear the Haas/Novak differences - just find the coda to the 1st and 4th movements, and see what you think...
For me, the preference for Haas is very clear (or better still, Carraghan 1872 with Scherzo second). There's a parallel with the 8th: like the passage in the 8th's adagio which Haas restores - the quiet moment of reflection before the ascent to the climax - each of those codas has a brief passage of quiet reflection and repose, with quotes from earlier movements and ideas, both of which Nowak leaves out, following the Herbeck-suggested cuts Bruckner made for the 1877 edition. In the last movement, you lose the first part of the coda as well. I can't see how the music benefits from these cuts at all.

[Beef Oven!]

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...hlight=asahina

No worries Beef, I wouldn't have listened again to that lovely JVC Tokyo Metropolitan 2nd if you hadn't mentioned him, so - thanks...

Off your 8th topic, but the 2nd is a good place to hear the Haas/Novak differences - just find the coda to the 1st and 4th movements, and see what you think...
For me, the preference for Haas is very clear (or better still, Carraghan 1872 with Scherzo second). There's a parallel with the 8th: like the passage in the 8th's adagio which Haas restores - the quiet moment of reflection before the ascent to the climax - each of those codas has a brief passage of quiet reflection and repose, with quotes from earlier movements and ideas, both of which Nowak leaves out, following the Herbeck-suggested cuts Bruckner made for the 1877 edition. In the first movement, you lose the first part of the coda as well. I can't see how the music benefits from these cuts at all.

Thanks for the short-cut on the second symphony, it will save me weeks!!

I started out last week completely indifferent to Bruckner performing versions, now I'm getting the bug!! 9I think waldo knew this would happen!).

Edit: I couldn't quite understand your link, now I realise, you mentioned Asahina's Bruckner 1 in your list nearly six years ago!

[teamsaint]

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...hlight=asahina

No worries Beef, I wouldn't have listened again to that lovely JVC Tokyo Metropolitan 2nd if you hadn't mentioned him, so - thanks...

Off your 8th topic, but the 2nd is a good place to hear the Haas/Novak differences - just find the coda to the 1st and 4th movements, and see what you think...
For me, the preference for Haas is very clear (or better still, Carraghan 1872 with Scherzo second). There's a parallel with the 8th: like the passage in the 8th's adagio which Haas restores - the quiet moment of reflection before the ascent to the climax - each of those codas has a brief passage of quiet reflection and repose, with quotes from earlier movements and ideas, both of which Nowak leaves out, following the Herbeck-suggested cuts Bruckner made for the 1877 edition. In the first movement, you lose the first part of the coda as well. I can't see how the music benefits from these cuts at all.

Yes, thanks for this, I'll definitely explore in the way you suggest.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, thanks for this, I'll definitely explore in the way you suggest.

Quick emendation to #29 - it's the last movement which loses the first part of its coda, not the first, where the cut is relatively brief.... sorry. No-one wants to add to Brucknerian confusions...

...What makes this especially interesting is, in Haas or Carraghan 1872, both the 2nd symphony's outer-movement codas quote the first and second subjects from the first movement.
In the 1st movement the coda's Beethoven-9 groundswell begins, but quickly winds down with lovely woodwind reflections on the second group - this is the passage that gets cut in Nowak 1877; then the coda crescendos to a halt - at which point the first theme is recalled; then the movement concludes.

In the finale again, the groundswell begins, but cuts off abruptly at a climax: the first and second themes from the first movement are recalled here, but this time in the order they first appeared - the whole of this passage is excised in Nowak.
So there's a subtle, hidden symmetry in the work's self-quotation which is completely lost if all you have is that single recall of the first movement's main theme at the end of that movement, and nothing at all in the coda of the finale.

[Beef Oven!]

Currently listening to VPO, Carlo Maria Giulini Bruckner 8. Deutsche Grammophon.

[Beef Oven!]

Currently listening to VPO, Carlo Maria Giulini Bruckner 8. Deutsche Grammophon.

What a performance that is. And good timing, finished 5 minutes before Match Of The Day!

[Richard Barrett]

What a performance that is. And good timing, finished 5 minutes before Match Of The Day!

Good to hear you're cutting down your football watching to only five minutes.

That is a stunning performance though. I stray from it now and again but usually come back in the end to be enveloped by it once more.

[Beef Oven!]

Good to hear you're cutting down your football watching to only five minutes.

That is a stunning performance though. I stray from it now and again but usually come back in the end to be enveloped by it once more.

Started!

Yes, I don't often go for this disc, but I will make a point of playing it more regularly. Tomorrow I'll spin Celibidache's MPO and Goodall's (noticing Petrushka posting the Goodall on the WAYLTN thread has put it into my mind).

[Petrushka]

Started!

Yes, I don't often go for this disc, but I will make a point of playing it more regularly. Tomorrow I'll spin Celibidache's MPO and Goodall's (noticing Petrushka posting the Goodall on the WAYLTN thread has put it into my mind).

I've had the Goodall since it first came out in 2002 but had no recollection of playing it even though I must have done. Anyway, not heard in 14 years! It's a slow performance but after Celibidache you might think the Goodall a bit fleet of foot It's actually a very good performance which rather put me in mind of Wand's Bruckner with the BBC SO. Turn the volume up a notch higher than normal for it to really open out.

[Beef Oven!]

I've had the Goodall since it first came out in 2002 but had no recollection of playing it even though I must have done. Anyway, not heard in 14 years! It's a slow performance but after Celibidache you might think the Goodall a bit fleet of foot It's actually a very good performance which rather put me in mind of Wand's Bruckner with the BBC SO. Turn the volume up a notch higher than normal for it to really open out.

I've not played it in a little while, but certainly more recently than 14 years ago! Yes, it's a broad performance but I think it's very good indeed (but I don't think we'd expect anything less from Sir Reginald). MOTD has now finished, I may listen to it now.

[Beef Oven!]

I listened to the Goodall 8 and I it was quite interesting. At first, I thought it was a bit of a let down, so soon after listening to the Giulini. However, as the first movement went on, I found myself being drawn into the music, more and more.

Although the performance is on the broad side, the 91 minutes seemed to pass very quickly. I find Goodall's music making intoxicating. When I first heard his Wagner (The Valkyrie), I was stunned as to how different this music could be from all the other performances I'd heard (Solti, Karajan, Furtwangler, Boulez, Krauss and one or two others, at the time). I wouldn't have a problem if Goodall's Ring was the only Wagner I could ever hear again.

Petrushka's right, the CD needs turning up a bit (from where I left the volume following the Giulini), but I think it's a very good recording. The sound of the percussion is just as it is in the concert hall. I was particularly impressed with the adagio. I shan't leave it so long before listening to this again.

I have just finished listening to the first movement and Scherzo of the Asahina/Osaka Philharmonic download I bought recently. I need to make some coffee and I'l return for the last two movements in a minute. I must say that this is an astonishing performance. The only way I can describe it is to say that he manages to convey such awesome power, inherent in the music, whilst giving such a sense of elegance. And the recording is excellent. Such clarity and separation of the instruments. I would urge anyone who has even a passing liking for this symphony to speculate to £7.99 for the Qobuz download. I'm sure no-one would regret it.

[jayne lee wilson]

That Exton 8th has a certain poignancy, as it was almost the last Bruckner recording Asahina made. Only the 9th from 9/01 is later. This last 8th is taken from performances on 23rd and 25th July 2001, in the fairly marvellous acoustic of Suntory Hall, Tokyo. That certainly piques my curiosity about it (despite preferences in some quarters for the 2/2001 Nagoya performance), but it may take a while to hear it this week (I need more than coffee breaks to get through a Bruckner symphony these days), especially as that St.Mary's Cathedral 8th beckons too... (and I'm in love with the 2nd again - often my favourite)...

[Beef Oven!]

That Exton 8th has a certain poignancy, as it was almost the last Bruckner recording Asahina made. Only the 9th from 9/01 is later. This last 8th is taken from performances on 23rd and 25th July 2001, in the fairly marvellous acoustic of Suntory Hall, Tokyo. That certainly piques my curiosity about it (despite preferences in some quarters for the 2/2001 Nagoya performance), but it may take a while to hear it this week (I need more than coffee breaks to get through a Bruckner symphony these days), especially as that St.Mary's Cathedral 8th beckons too... (and I'm in love with the 2nd again - often my favourite)...

Thanks for the information on Asahina's Exton B8. One of the downsides of downloads is the paucity of information.

I've always had a soft spot for #2, not least because it was the only piece of music I had with me during an unpleasant time abroad some years ago.